Evaluating Christian Nationalism

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Ligon Duncan
We are here today to talk just a little bit about Christian nationalism, which is something that you see mentioned a lot on social media, in books, book reviews, political reporting, even picking up on that with election season coming on. Maybe we should start with what is it? Because there’s been a lot of debate over what constitutes Christian nationalism. Anybody want to take a stab at what is Christian nationalism? Dr. Ryken?

Philip Ryken
I was gonna ask Bob Thune to do it because he knows more about politics probably than I do.

Bob Thune
Right. Well, I did read, you know, Perry, and Whitehead came out with a book last year that it sociologically trying to define the terms. So I think part of the challenge is, there’s a narrower definition and a broader definition they were trying to arrive at, how would you describe this, and basically, the way they the definition they land on is, it’s a fusing of Christian identity and national identity in ways that that most of us would find problematic. So that’s one one way to understand Christian nationalism is just my identity as a Christian, my identity as a citizen of my nation, getting conflated in ways that are unbiblical.

Ligon Duncan
Want to elaborate on that?

Philip Ryken
Well, nationalism has a whole history to it. And there’s which is centuries long a rise in nation states and how people identify with the people of their nation. For me, the term Christian nationalism seems very recent, I can’t really remember hearing it more than sort of five years ago. And it came in at a time when people weren’t really talking about nationalism at all, but all of a sudden, it’s nationalism, and it’s Christian nationalism. So one distinction I would make is between nationalism and patriotism. For me, nationalism connotes something where the nation is elevated to a place that is perhaps even godlike as an idolatrous connection. Whereas patriotism is a is a love of country, that can be a virtuous thing. So when I hear the term nationalism, I put it Moreover, in this non virtuous category, in contrast to patriotism,

Bob Thune
I might add that there’s I think, contrasting with globalism can be helpful, too. Because if you think about what’s the opposite of nationalism, it’s sort of like the idea of unmasking global citizens were. So I think some of the people that would say nationalism isn’t always a bad term would say, Well, we are a citizen of a nation. And so there is an appropriate kind of patriotism and place in the world compared to sort of a citizen of nowhere. Yeah,

Andy Davis
I think it also has to do with the level of our affection. And you mentioned idolatry. You know, Jesus says, Anyone who loves father and mother more than Me is not worthy of me. Anyone who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of me. He’s used hate in other places, if anyone doesn’t even hate his own life. He’s not advocating hatred. It’s a hierarchy of loyalties, hierarchy of affections. And I think the sense I get the Christian nationalism is that that loyalty to country has taken too high a place in that person’s hierarchy of infections.

Philip Ryken
I was gonna ask you a question, Ligon, which is, when you think about what can be healthy and patriotism what, what comes to mind? Do you think of yourself as a patriotic person patriotic for the United States? What? What does that look like?

Ligon Duncan
You and I come out of a very similar ecclesiastical tradition, where our people have tended to be patriotic, certainly in their personal and social lives, but they’ve also wanted to be very careful not to bring that into church. So you know, in our tradition, there even argument should there be accoutrements of our country symbolism in our church buildings, and especially in our, in the meeting hall, where we, where we gather for worship, and that reflects people in our tradition, trying to be really careful about too closely mixing America, and our commitment to Christ, and our practice as the church and our worship of God. So I want to encourage patriotism, in my congregation, in their personal lives, I want them to care about their country, I want them to care about their fellow citizens, I want to I don’t want them to care about their country’s conduct in relation to the other countries of the world. We need to be engaged in that way. And it’s, it’s interesting, there’s a lot of material on that topic in the New Testament. Titus three, the whole chapter is really about Christian conduct in the society and the culture and we think about that, that’s Crete. The cretins had a real chip on their shoulder about the Roman Empire because the Roman Empire had come in and conquered their territory. And Paul’s instructions to them are all about having a constructive engagement with the society caring about the well being of all people being good citizens respecting authority, when they had a natural tendency not to want to do that. And so I got interested in this. I was teaching a course and I had to look at the question of helping Christians think through what is the Bible teaches about the way we engage with culture in it, it struck me ate that there is actually a lot in the New Testament that gives direct command and counsel to Christians on how they conduct themselves in this way. One thing I’ll add to what you have said about Christian and I was gonna throw in the global thing, because I do think that’s big. A lot of times when you see someone either adopt something like a Christian nationalist label or someone accuse someone of being a Christian nationalist, a lot of times immigration policy is behind that. And behind that is a concern with globalism. And so I do think we are in an interesting moment, I think the Christian nationalism discussion reminds me a lot of the old theonomy discussion in the 1970s and 80s. But it’s a very different sociological situation. 70s and 80s. You have the rise of sort of social conservatives in the Republican Party, the rise of the influence of evangelicalism in politics, Carter is elected in one of the major magazines does the year, or the evangelical and all this kind of stuff within that movement, the reconstruction movement, the theonomy movement is sort of part of that right wing wave that’s growing up wanting to influence the culture with Christian virtues, ideals, principles, laws, etc. Today, the Christian nationalism group, I really think represents a sense of the loss of influence in culture. It, it represents a tiny, tiny, politically uninfluenced evil group. I mean, what what governor, senator, Congressman is out there advocating for anything like Christian nationalism, or who would be open to that, you remember when the when the laws were being debated in Uganda regarding LGBTQIA rights, even the most conservative members of the US Congress would not touch it at all. And so what we’re seeing now is a discussion about Christian nationalism that has, there’s no possibility of any real public effect on it in terms of public policy, government, etc, who are the people that are advocating for it that are actually involved in government, and that, to me, it, I think that means that that with, with at least some people that will utilize the label, they’re more concerned with building a subculture within the church, that, that advocates for certain ideals, and excludes other people that don’t advocate for those ideals, rather than actually influencing the way we operate as a Commonwealth as a nation as a republic. So I do think the sociological situations are really, really different from the 1970s and 80s. And the rise of the Evan Jellicle influence they a lot of this is the fallout from the 2016 election when the 81%, white evangelical thing that just became a meme everywhere. And some of this is sort of like payback, of Christian Christian nationalism has become the, the sort of the bully boy to beat up on. Because of, of that kind of concern. You’ve already articulated a view of Christian nationalism that warns against certain things, what things are problematic, what things are potentially helpful under that label? I wonder,

Bob Thune
I’m interested in a question connected to that, based on what you just said, which is, I think, as we think about what is what kind of societal influence is it okay for Christians to want? Because what I sense in the background of this conversation is there’s sort of an implicit enlightenment liberalism that says, keep your faith private in the public square, don’t try to advocate for anything and some you’re right, that the moment is different. And so some of what people are pushing back against is, is it okay for me to advocate for a public policy position on an issue that I feel like is connected to the Christian worldview? And I think that’s the place where things get a little sticky right now. So I’m curious how you guys would talk about the connection between our convictions about God and Christ in the Scriptures? And then how that should lead us to involve ourselves in public. All right question.

Andy Davis
Well, I think one of the I just preaching through the Gospel of Mark, and I’m at he just dealt with paying taxes to Caesar and I knew we were having this discussion coming up, I was reading about it, thinking about it. So I added an additional page of notes and I compared Christ kingdom and the way it advances versus the kingdoms of the world and the way they advance and I compared John 18, where Jesus says, My kingdom is not of this world. If it were my servants would fight. But then in John 1224, he says, unless the kernel of wheat falls on the ground and dies, it remains a single seed, but if it dies, it bears much fruit. And so Christ’s kingdom advance answers by its servants dying. The kingdoms of this world advanced by killing or threatening to kill, you know the power of the sword the opponents. So the question is how our opponents and opposition opposing views dealt with. And for us, we seek to persuade, we seek to exemplify godliness, we seek to pray for people be willing to lay down our lives, the government uses the sword. It’s what it’s designed to do. So I’m uncomfortable with the marrying of those two together.

Bob Thune
But that doesn’t help me much if I’m a Christian who’s running for office, or who’s on the school board who’s on the city council. So I think that’s where the question gets interesting to me is, there’s a lot of people in our churches that can keep those two worlds relatively separate, but there are many who can’t. And so that’s that that’s where it becomes interesting is what? Taking that a step further, Andy, what would you say to someone who does have a responsibility to instantiate public policy in some way?

Andy Davis
Yeah, it’s a challenge. I mean, we have a church member has gone on to our circuit Supreme Court track, he’s adding perhaps toward very high level, maybe even Supreme Court ultimate as a desire to do that. And he’s going to be rendering verdicts on cases based out of his Christian convictions, but also knows that the surrounding culture doesn’t support that. So it’s challenging, that’s the salt and light aspect. And so you argue, you know, you you defend, you put your views for, but we’re going to get, we’re seeing increasingly out voted. And the thing that’s hard with the LGBT aspect and other things is it’s it seems to be militarized, almost an end, you know, you’ll lose your job if you don’t sign up with these things. And that’s the challenge.

Philip Ryken
What I like about the kingdom framing is it reminds us that we have a higher citizenship, which is more important than our earthly citizenship. But the earthly is also important. And I think we learned this both from church history. And we also learn it from learning from our brothers and sisters around the world. So if you look at church history, for example, the kinds of writing that Calvin and the other reformers did in the preambles of the things that they were publishing, they often emphasize the fact that as reformers they were loyal citizens of the kingdoms that they participated in, in an earthly sense, they weren’t seditious or subversive. In that sense, they were for the people of their place. And Calvin felt very deeply for this, you know, with respect to the French, and also with the Swiss. So there’s a there’s a legacy and a tradition of recognizing there’s an appropriate love of people. That is part of our kingdom citizenship in this earthly context. And it helps me to frame things internationally as well. Because when I travel around the world, and they see, for example, the way that the church in China wants to emphasize, we are loyal citizens. We are for the Chinese people, even though we do have this higher loyalty and we’re going to our loyalty to God is going to be the ultimate loyal loyalty for us. Within that higher loyalty. We also have an affection, a neighborliness, and appropriate patriotism, I would say. So I think we there are some examples that we can run, they can probably really help us in our present time and place in the United States.

Andy Davis
So your question about that one word that’s in my mind is stewardship. You know, I was I’m watching a documentary on the Civil War, just past the Gettysburg Address government of the people, by the people, for the people, this is what’s unique. And a city on a hill, you know, how would you look, Philip, at the issue of stewardship that Christians have a stewardship toward our nation?

Philip Ryken
Yeah. So stewardship is a good, good category for that. And I think it’s particularly important to steward power and privilege Well, and, you know, wanting one example, I think it was Samuel Rutherford, who had a big influence even on our constitutional democracy through some of his his writings, he reflected on how the church, particularly in the Presbyterian and Puritan tradition had engaged with the pursuit of political power in England. And with a lot of regret, because it had, it had led to regicide it had very harmful effects. And he reflected, he said, we were like lions. And we should have been like lambs. And there was something about the character of Christ that needed to be lived out in political engagement. And he wanted to see that reflected, not just personally, but communally and how the Christian church was engaging its political context. So part of the stewardship, I think, is drawing on the right images and metaphors from scripture that inform our our engagement. And I agree with Bob, like, there’s got to be some place that you live out your Christian convictions publicly, not just privately. But with this higher citizenship in mind.

Bob Thune
And I think one of the things that that’s challenging is, no one’s gonna disagree with you about loving our neighbors and loving our country and loving our people, our community and our place where it gets challenging is when I’m opposing something that like LGBTQ rights or something where it feels like now I’m a Christian and I have to take the stance of opposition that feels different right now than it might have 30 or 40 years ago, when there was a little more of a general sense in the culture that it’s okay, we disagree on stuff it feels like now. That’s the place where Christians feel pressed is okay. What if I disagree with my neighbor about what Justice looks like in society or what a good policy is to go forward?

Andy Davis
I’m from Boston originally. So I still get electronic subscription to the Boston Globe. And just a couple of days ago, a story on the public school system rolling out their sex ed program, K through 12. What they’re doing K through three, what they’re doing fourth, I’m like, Are they out of their minds? And if I live in that state, I mean, you know, and they said, they were open all summer to push back, they got all kinds of pushback, but they’re going to do what they’re going to do. And there’s that that authority. And at that point, you know, so that would be a that’s where the rubber meets the road is like, what do we do when the government schools are forcing this stuff? And they say, Look, you can take your kids out for those club, but you got to be honest, you don’t know when it’s gonna happen. It’s problematic.

Bob Thune
I think those are the kinds of moments where this conversation gets challenging.

Ligon Duncan
And as a pastor, if a legislator comes to me and says, can I act on my Christian convictions about what a man and a woman is? When I’m doing? I’m going to say, yes, you may know, I do think one of the tricks is the difference between must and May. That’s it, I think we have to we have to think about the doctrine of the civil magistrate, almost all of our confessions, Baptist, Presbyterian, and otherwise have a doctrine of the civil magistrate. And interestingly, if you look at that doctrine of the civil magistrate inside the 17th century, in our tradition, it’s different from the doctrine of the civil magistrate in the 18th century. And I think it’s it’s really good for if guys are just getting into this discussion, go back and read some about the broader reform tradition on the civil magistrate. From the 16th and 17th century, there’s a move from state churches, established churches to ecclesiastical voluntourism, which has a big impact on how they view the relationship of church and society. So pastors need to know a little bit about that, they also need to consider the doctrine of Christian liberty, because as pastors, I can’t tell people to do what the Bible doesn’t tell them to do. And in some of these areas, there’s not a clear answer. But there are areas where I can say, yes, you may pursue this particular thing. I can’t tell you, you must, but you may. And so I want to, and I’ve had politicians come and said, Would you Polit? Would you quietly pray with me as I think through how to act with integrity, how to act in accordance with our laws, but also how to act in accordance with my Christian principles, not trying to wave my flag about this? I’m just trying to be faithful, Would you pray with me about that, and as a pastor, we need to be ready to do that with all of our people that are involved, especially at the local level, people underplay the the power of the local influence of politics. That’s it, you know, the saying used to be that all politics is local. And we over look how important and influential that is. So when you have people in local politics, whether it’s the school board, or or the planning commission, that’s that what a wonderful opportunity to advise and counsel and encourage Christian members of our congregation. So I do think we have to think about Christian liberty.

Andy Davis
Do you think the 30 Years War The Christians fighting Christians on you know, was influential in leading to the end of a state sponsored church?

Ligon Duncan
I think that, in the, in the 17th century, reformed folks who, who were, you know, outside of the Lutheran World, broadly reformed people were running the world in Western Europe, realized they were killing one another. And that they said, you know, this is not working, there has to be a way that there can be liberty of conscience, where there can be freedom of religion, and when were they there can be established toleration for a diversity of, of, of religious, you know, whether our bodies or whatever within our, within our countries, and, and that’s the, that’s the stuff out of which the American political experiment grows. Because you look at the people that left England in the 17th century and came to America. They were right out of the middle year of the Westminster Confession of Faith. And right after the great ejection in 1662, from the Church of England, and then they’re coming to the colonies. And people that would have been on opposite sides of things suddenly become allies in the United States of Baptists and Presbyterians.

Andy Davis
30 years war and I think right around that time, too, and it’s like, I think from then on, I don’t think there were state sponsored churches at all.

Ligon Duncan
That factors into this discussion about how you figure out how to relate to society. And I do think when it comes down to practical questions, there are people that are doing good thinking about this. There As everybody knows, in the last 10 years, everybody’s on the Herman bavinck bandwagon and everybody’s reading about it. Well, bobbing is trying to think through this in his own culture. How do I as a traditional Bible believing Calvinist counsel people to engage in the, in the public spheres of life in a plural in an increasingly secularizing and pluralizing society? That’s the whole project of Neo Calvinism. So if you want to think well about this, you’d probably be wise to pick up some Neo Calvinistic literature, Cory, Brock and Gracie Tonto have written a wonderful little introduction to Neo Calvinism that has a whole section on politics. And that would be a great thing to think through about how a Christian can engage as a Christian, principally in a pluralistic society. That’s the whole thing that Neo Calvinism is trying to think through. So I think, think about our Christian view of how we relate to the civil magistrate think about Christian liberty, and then think about how do we do this in a pluralistic society, because a lot of the material that we back to from our heroes is written from a time when it was not a pluralistic society, there was an established church. And that’s a different dynamic for how you tell a Christian how to engage you were talking about China, I had the same thought in in the early 1990s. I’m teaching in Jackson, I had these guys that are very influenced by Christian reconstructionism. They’re, you know, they’re quoting Greg Bahnson, that every Christian must personally advocate for the application of the civil laws of Moses to the nation state. And I’m thinking I’m looking at in my class, and I’m seeing a Chinese student. And I’m going, Okay, how does? Even if he wanted to do that, how does he do that? You know, and so it’s good to realize that Christians around the world are in very, very different political situations. And they’ve got different calculations to make in those different political situations. So I do, I do think I think we can actually sketch out basic Christian principles and still be left Bob saying, Yeah, but I need some direction on what to do. In this situation.

Andy Davis
Well, what I’m curious about that may and must, that’s really helpful. But I’m wondering, so you know, in our city, one of the obviously big questions has to do with gender identity laws and school systems trying to say, you know, Can we can we call Boys, boys and girls schools or not? And so when it when a Christian has to make a decision of, must we advocate for a certain because of our convictions about creation? Right, that, certainly I’m free to, you know, influence in one direction. But I think the question is, when it comes to loving my neighbor, what’s my responsibility to the kids across the street as a citizen of us of a pluralistic city? But the the question being asked is a moral and ethical question, and that that gets–

Philip Ryken
So, there’s another category here. So there’s the main the must, but there are also judgment calls that you make about the best way to advocate for something and what the best policy is. And those are the kinds of things that people of goodwill, that may even agree on moral principles, they may disagree about, what’s the best legislation, what’s the best, most persuasive way to advocate for this. So there, there’s another area of judgment call. And one of the I think tough things in a lot of the political discussions is I may have biblical principles that inform the judgment call I’m making about how to engage a particular political issue. But it doesn’t mean that because I have those principles behind it, that my judgment call about how to pursue this in the public square is of the same level of certainty and advocacy. So I think holding just just recognizing there’s a difference between the principles that inform something and the judgment call I’m making about how to advocate for those. And then another thing I’d add to the list with with conscience, there’s the position that we have on a public issue, which may be moral, and maybe a moral imperative. There’s also the posture that we bring to how we relate to people as we advocate for that position. And I think in a lot of the political discussions we’ve had in the Christian community and Evan Jellicle communities, we’ve been much more focused on the position than we have been reflective on the spirit fruit virtues that we bring to our posture for how we engage with the issues. And I think if you read the New Testament, the posture is as important to Jesus, as the position is, and they are both part of embodying Christian witness in the political arena, you know,

Andy Davis
it’s just glowing in my mind right now. It’s just chapter after chapter, the book of Daniel, for example, in Daniel for when Nebuchadnezzar has this dream that involves the stripping of his power, like a tree being stripped of its branches and all these birds and bees fleeing from out from under a picture of an empire. That’s under Nebuchadnezzar shade, and he stripped in years turned into insane person. Daniel’s first reaction when he understood the dream is I wish this were spoken of your enemies. You know, there’s a kindness to him. They seem to have a friendship. He doesn’t have it with Belshazzar. He has zero respect for Belshazzar. He actually does nothing but rebuke and you knew what God did to your grandfather. And look at you. So here’s the judgment very night your soul is going to be required of you. But wouldn’t it be kanessa He said, he’s a be pleased, oh king to accept my advice, renounce your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed. He’s got that Advic advocacy role, and it seems like he has a hearing. I also wonder this is speculative. How does that power vacuum, not get filled by somebody? This is the Babylonian Empire. And this guy is crazy for seven years. And his kingdom is his, at the end of the seven years where where were the claimants to the throne? I wonder if Daniel kept the thing running for a while because he knew Nebuchadnezzar is coming back. But that speaks of a kindness and a relationship but a willingness to speak boldly to power renounce your sins, and your wickedness. And that’s power.

Philip Ryken
That’s a great example of both a position.

Ligon Duncan
Sure, really good. And by the way, I do think not only the New Testament epistles, but the Minor Prophets and especially Daniel are meant to inform us in the kind of social and political situation that we’re in now as how do you stay a faithful follower of the one true and living God? How do you how do you stay a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ when all of this crazy stuff is going around you politically, socially, culturally, they’re there to help us.

Andy Davis
And one more thing and Daniel seven, yet the four beasts coming up out of the sea, and the fourth beast, Beast is given power to wage war against the seat saints and defeat them. But the saints are going to get the kingdom in the end. So I think there’s just a realism to know we’re gonna get defeated. We’re not the movers and shakers. Often we are the moved and shaken. But in the end, the meek will inherit the earth. So I wanted that. So eschatology company comes in.

Ligon Duncan
We win by losing.

Philip Ryken
So Bob, you’ve been putting a lot of questions out here, I’m unable to tell if they’re rhetorical questions or not. So I thought, I thought I thought you probably have some like answers that you haven’t shared yet,

Bob Thune
though. They’re real questions. I’m very intrigued by the conversation. I think the the questions I have relate to, you know, what you just said is true. And I think as Christians, our posture has to always be we, if we read the New Testament, and we read the Old Testament, we read the whole Bible, okay? God’s people are often oppressed, often opposed. That’s our lot. However, we do we are, if we think back even to the founding of America, we do so have a responsibility to try to do the best to instantiate justice and create a society where our neighbors can flourish. And that seems to me to be the sticking point because the falling back to the Hey, Christians are often oppressed and opposed, I think we have to have that as a starting point. But I’m more intrigued by but what is our responsibility in a pluralistic democratic republic? What is our responsibility as Christians for the prospering of the nation, the influencing of laws and policy? Those seems to be the questions that lie underneath the Christian nationalism conversation more because people I do I do think, see, well, we can’t just be passive and say, Well, who cares where the society goes, we do have a responsibility, and the questions of how to hold that responsibility seem to lie at the heart here.

Andy Davis
And I wonder also, as I just quickly walk through Daniel one, maintain your purity. Daniel to seek God’s insight for the moment and the hour is he’s Nebuchadnezzar wants to kill all the advisors because they can’t tell the dream. Daniel three, say no, to I open wicked commands. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused when you have to just talk about Daniel for Daniel five prophetic moment, this thing’s over, knowing that these kingdoms are going to end Daniel six, there’s there. He’s third highest ruler in the kingdom. He’s kind of running the place. But he won’t give up on his quiet time. His daily quiet time, all the way up to Daniel nine pray the prayer life. So you got personal holiness, got prayer, you got eschatology, big picture, you got the empires, there’s so much in that. So it’s not like where God’s left us as orphans. We don’t know what to do. There’s, there’s actually all of those answers say, no one, you must, but be submissive, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Think about this. They are commanded by Nebuchadnezzar to come out of the fright fiery furnace, the most unenforceable law ever given in history. Make us since someone here to get us who could come in, they’re gonna get ignited. All right. But they didn’t do that they were submissive, they came out it wasn’t in a moral command, they came out when they’re commanded to come out. There’s so much in that book that gives I think, instruction.

Bob Thune
That’s helpful, but glad you mentioned Bhavik. And I think that’s where I’m intrigued is, all our historical examples of many of them are monarchies. It’s not pluralistic democracy. And so the I think it is a different question. If you know if I’m gonna monarchy is like, well, you know, my job is either to resist the evil of the king or pray for the good of the king. But when as a citizen, I have Democratic responsibility, that’s where I think there’s there are some new questions here or some maybe not new but in the last 100 or 200 years, they are being asked for the first time

Ligon Duncan
and I look, I think that is the appeal whether it was Christian reconstructionism in the set Ben needs an 80s, or some versions of Christian nationalism now, being able to say we have a thus saith the Lord for what you’re supposed to do, you’re supposed to do this. And the other guys, they don’t have an answer. Well, in this case, there, there isn’t one right answer, because of the factors we’ve already taught Christians are going to make different judgments in different what what I want them to do is make those judgments informed under consciences that have been instructed by the word of God. And and so that you will have good people differ. People that have the same principles differ on how to navigate, you mentioned recovered. One of the sad things about Scottish History at that period of time is the division between guys, there are heroes, we look back at how they totally broke off with one another over political decisions in their culture recovered, in some ways, he’s looking back and lamenting how that happened. So that can happen. And so again, as a pastor, I want to be careful about that I may have a particular instinct on how I think something ought to be approached. And I need to be really careful about saying you have to do this, I want to make sure that person doesn’t give away the store in terms of their commitments. Well, you know, I really shouldn’t pray because if I pray, I’ll get in trouble with the government. No, you shouldn’t pray, keep on praying, you know, or, you know, I should give up on this basic Christian doctrine, because that doctrine is looked down upon it’s Nope, you can’t give up on that doctrine. But then how then do I advance public policy? How then do I engage on that issue, there gonna be a million judgment calls that comes back to your Prudential decision making that that has to be a part of democracy, right? Because so much of how we govern is it’s it’s in a context of compromise. You have to figure out can I get Can I coalesce around a particular program to get enough votes to win a vote, you have to win in democracy in order to be able to govern? And in that means that people were making throw rocks? How could you have compromised with that? How could you have made alliances with them, you’re compromising liver, Lily, coward. But if you if you don’t construct coalition’s in a democracy, you can’t govern. So it’s Messier in a democracy, I think, in some ways, it’s cleaner when you’re dealing with an evil dictator. But when we’re the we’re the government, you have to build coalitions to operate in that democracy.

Philip Ryken
I’m glad you mentioned, being careful as a pastor, because many of us are in roles where people give a lot of deference to our perspective, and we speak with a kind of divine authority on the basis of Scripture. And people may give us a similar kind of deference in areas that are really outside of our calling, or expertise, including political areas. So just recognizing that there are limits to our pastoral oversight, and pastoral authority, and then emphasizing the things that that really are important. And you mentioned prayer, which I in a way, that’s the easiest one of all of these, because it’s such a clear calling that we have to pray for our leaders, I’m not sure even that, as simple and basic and clear as it is, is something that we really excel, that should be mentioned in this conversation is one of the believers responsibilities in the political sphere.

Andy Davis
It’s very powerful to First Timothy to urge the prayers be offered for kings, those in authority. And I think it takes the sinful heat out of some Christians that are very distressed, at directions, like pray for this individual, pray for their transformation. If if Nebuchadnezzar was speaking as a regenerate person at the end, those who walk in pride, he is able to humble maybe he was God can convert anyone. God desires all people to be saved. First Timothy two, it’s connected there. I’ve seen people’s countenance is changed when they start praying for people, elected officials, they deeply disagree with they start to realize, wait a minute, this is a human being that’s going to spend eternity in heaven or hell. And then secondly, they’re making choices that I disagree with. And then there’s a shifting of their attitude.

Bob Thune
I’m mainly concerned that we don’t, I’m always cautious myself, have baptising enlightenment liberalism and assuming that we are living at the moment in history where we’ve figured out the right political arrangements. So the reason I actually like some of the conversations around politics is because it helps me step back and critique my own assumptions about how should How should a society work, and I think I can so easily default to a sort of post enlightenment, plural democracy that, you know, asking questions like, well, you know, should we instantiate public policy that favors Christianity in some way? Right. I think that’s an interesting question. I think there’s lots of landmines around that question. But I think the question itself helps us actually, not be, you know, to use CS Lewis’s term not to be falling into chronological snobbery where it feels like we have figured this out You know, our politics has advanced to the moment in, in history where now we understand how to do it. So I, I’m just trying to speak to your question from a few minutes ago feel to say that I think there’s good in robust conversations about this honoring freedom of conscience and honoring the fact that there’s a lot of wisdom and prudence required to think about how do we move forward in questions of public policy?

Ligon Duncan
How are you going to encourage your people to engage politically? How do you want people that you are called to shepherd and encourage and edify? What do you want to do to help cultivate a good and right and wise and biblical political engagement? One

Philip Ryken
area for me is simply encouraging young people to be open to a calling in public service, including political office, because I think, even if you set aside a wrong kind of pursuit of power, trying to bring the heaven bringing heaven to earth in ways that God has not given us as the church, there still is a noble tradition of Christian engagement in the political sphere. And that’s one place where we do need to live out our Christian calling, and Daniel’s a great example of that. So that would be one thing just encouraged and openness is, this is one place to serve God. And it doesn’t have to be your full time vocation either. There are lots of local opportunities, library board, Parks Commission, there are lots of places where Christians ought to be much more engaged and not think, Oh, I only want to be involved in my church. And in these ministry areas. This is another sphere of Christian witness. So those are two things that I think are important.

Andy Davis
Yeah, interesting. Also, in Daniel six, it’s pretty clear that Darius loves Daniel, also the Daniels extremely competent at what he does. And I look at some of the identity politics that put people in power that are inept, they’re just not good at governing. And they run with . . .

Philip Ryken
We get the leaders we deserve, not the ones we need.

Andy Davis
So you get inept leaders who don’t know how to run a big city. And when they’re done, it’s much worse in every respect. So I guess one way we engage is if you’re going to do that be good at governance, find out what a good government is in noncontroversial ways. What what is a healthy? What does a healthy run city look like? What are the elements of good government so that you could see people that come through and they’re just like Daniel was really good at their job, because they looked for something they could find. And he was neither negligent nor inept, he’s on it, he’s excellent. We the only thing we’re going to find is with his religion, because other than that he is just a phenomenal administrator, is to see Christians do that kind of thing. It’s good.

Bob Thune
I agree that all politics is local. And so I’m encouraging my flock just to take responsibility for things like library boards and school boards and being active in the most local ways. But I think also just trying to help Christians care about loving their neighbor, and care about the common good, because I think actually, there are many people in my city, I want to be a champion for the flourishing of my city. And whether it’s people involved in my church who are pursuing that or just my neighbors in the city, I want to I want to say I want a well run city that honors human flourishing, and that makes life work for people. And so I think I want to lead a church where that’s part of the thing we’re aiming for or hoping for praying for and working out.

Andy Davis
You could you could circle back like some of the DEI stuff and the education is going on LGBT is taking the place of the work that the school should be doing. And so inevitably, what’s going to happen is performance is going to go down in these areas. I think it’s good for Christians to say hey, aside from all that, I’m going to talk about the besides lot how are the students actually doing? Are they competing Well, in reading, writing, arithmetic, arithmetic, other things where they are not because their time is being taken up with these other things, and those questions might win the day.

Ligon Duncan
Enjoy the conversation, man, thank you so much.