Ministering in the Midst of Godlessness

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

Ray Ortlund
Welcome back to your not crazy gospel sanity for young pastors. I’m Ray ortlund with my friend Sam Albury, thank you for listening in. Thank you for receiving this conversation that we very earnestly desire to pass along to you with the hope and the prayer that you might be served encouraged, and know that you’re not crazy for putting Jesus first way to go, you just keep going. We thank crossway books for sponsoring this this podcast. We’re grateful for the gospel coalition and their partnership. And toward the end of our time together today, Sam and I want to highlight a book written by someone who’s very dear to me. crossway has published my wife’s book Janee ortlund. It’s entitled, help. I’m married to my pastor, encouragement for ministry wives and those who love them. And I think you said once Sam and your inimitable way, and I’m going to write the sequel help, I am the pastor. So we’ll come around to Jenny’s book, then in due course, we’re glad you’re here with us in this episode.

Sam Allberry
Welcome back, it’s good to have you with us. Thanks for joining us for this episode. Right, I’ve got a question for you, which will sort of tie into what we’re talking about today. But if you had access to a time machine, where and when would you want to go to

Ray Ortlund
all kinds of possibilities occur to me the Battle of the Alamo and, and the the English reformation and so forth. But frankly, the truth of it is, I would love to go back to my wedding day. I would love a do over. Jenny and I have loved each other all along. We had been faithful to each other. But it’s also true. I have been such a doofus. So many times, I’d love to go back to December 18 1971, in Minneapolis, Minnesota, at Lake Harriet Baptist Church, and marry that precious girl all over again and be a better husband. over now 51 years. Wow. Yeah. So I, Sam, the Lord has been so kind. All along. And at conspicuous points along the way, I have been so dumb, and selfish and clueless. And Jenny has been so patient and understanding. I wish I had been a better husband for her. Oh, now she would say, You’ve been wonderful. And she’d you know all the nice things she would say because she’s just amazing. But you asked me that question. That’s my honest answer.

Sam Allberry
That’s a great answer, right? Well, Paul is taking us to think about a particular time. In this text, we begin our passage, which is Second Timothy three verse verses one down to reverse 11. Paul begins by saying understand this, then in the last times, there will in the last days, there will come times of difficulty. So Paul is talking about this period of time, we understand that we are in those last days, it’s not just referring to the sort of the final weeks before Jesus returns, but the whole period between Jesus ascension and his return. This is, you know, the last days. So this is the time in which we find ourselves. And Paul wants to give us a heads up as to what we’re going to find in this time. And it’s it’s fairly bleak. But it’s not hopeless. It so and he

Ray Ortlund
says in verse one, but understand this, he doesn’t just say These times are coming but stare at this for a while. Think about this for a while, understand this, come to terms with this. Make peace with this. Yeah. This is the mission field that God is sending you into. These are the times that God is locating you in. It’s not a mistake. It is something to think about and study and understand.

Sam Allberry
Yeah. He says there will come times of difficulty he doesn’t say there’s probably going to be some hardship he says there will be the fact that he says times of difficulty makes me think he’s not imagining it. It’s it’s all at the same level of intensity the entire way through there are going to be seasons where it is more acute and maybe some seasons of comparative relief from some of the worst of it. But nevertheless, difficulty is is going to be part of the norm. In the last days as we seek to serve Jesus. He’s

Ray Ortlund
for seeing trends. I wonder if this is like waves washing up on the shore, the wave rushes in and then recedes and then comes back again. And as the tide is coming in each wave just moves like one inch further up on the shore. So history is the only happy ending is the second coming of Christ. Yeah, we have put all our hope there. But we do You understand, and we deeply accept. The Lord Himself has sent us into times of difficulty, seasons of unusual stress and pressure and attack. And in verses 10 and 11, he also assures us, He will get us through this. Yeah,

Sam Allberry
this is this is really bleak, but it’s not. It’s not hopeless. We don’t need to despair. We need to be sober. We need to be, have our wits about us. We need to get our expectations right. When I first became a Christian, and it was probably six months in before I began to feel the beginnings of a call to pastoral ministry, I probably had fairly naive assumptions about pastoral ministry. So how wonderful to be serving in a church to be teaching to be encouraging and equipping. It never occurred to me that it would be a stepping into real conflict. That is what Paul is describing. And what is interesting is, you know, there will be times of difficulty for People will be lovers. Fascinating. And he then unpacks this difficulty in terms of things people will be loving for People will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self control, brutal, not loving, good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. Love loving lovers is mentioned five times. Twice in the negative, not nothing good. Not lovers of God, three times in a kind of, I guess, sort of positive. lovers of self, lovers of money, lovers of pleasure. Yes.

Ray Ortlund
Let’s all admit it, shall we, we understand exactly what he’s talking about here. It’s not as though we look at this. And, you know, our eyes widen and we, this is unimaginable to us. This is this is me. Without Jesus, yeah, this is all of us without Jesus, he says, people will be he’s talking about a discernible general trend, a sort of atmosphere, a tone throughout culture, people in general will be and as you point out, the there will be no lack of love in the world. In these very difficult times. Very loving, loving the wrong things. Yeah.

Sam Allberry
That’s fairly striking, isn’t it? Yes.

Ray Ortlund
I’m struck that Augustine Metzen Smethurst. Put this on Twitter recently, Augustine said, moral character is assessed not by what a man knows. But by what he loves. What we love shows us what we are. Yeah. So here’s here’s a world filled with love.

Sam Allberry
Which means times of difficulty. Yes. I’m struck Ray. Some of these things on that list. We would we would obviously associate with times of difficulty, proud, abusive, arrogant, heartless. They sound like strong things. But Paul puts in that same list disobedient to their parents. Ungrateful. Which to our to ARIA sound milder. Yes, kind of negative thing. Yeah, I’m struck by that. But Paul says disobedience to parents, as belonging in the same kind of category as being heartless. He sees being ungrateful. In the same thing as being treacherous, which I think means we’ve not thought about those two particular things seriously enough. Wow.

Ray Ortlund
Paul is seeing a pattern and he’s seeing connections that I don’t deserve. I’m thinking of Carl Truman’s insightful book the rise and triumph of the modern self, which is he could only almost take these verses select double click, when it comes up on the screen is is Karl’s insightful book, the rising trend for the modern sell, which is also published by crossway. As I recall, yeah.

Sam Allberry
Verse five having the appearance of godliness. So some of this will look at look a bit religiously. It will look at a serpent surface level as if it’s kind of Christian churchy spiritual.

Ray Ortlund
John Stott in his commentary on Second Timothy says this Paul means rather that within the church, for he has been giving a description of a kind of a kind of heathen Christianity. He heathen Christianity, Sam, there is in our part of this country and we I love my country. But here in the south Bible Belt religion is what starts talking about a kind of heathen Christianity. So many people go to church. So many people sing the hymns and recite the Creed and put money in the offering plate and, and say their prayers and so forth. But he says, but denying its power, who of us would say, we’re living in the midst of the third great awakening? Yeah. So let’s all humble ourselves, and confess how we see ourselves in this picture that Paul paints, let’s confess our sins and cry out to God for His power, and never settle for a mere appearance of godliness. I think of it this way, Sam. If the kind of Christianity that we’re living in today, didn’t require the death and resurrection of Jesus, if this is just us, being good, pretty good. You know, and following the bible, then this is this is heathen Christianity. It has the appearance of godliness, but denies its power. It is. The Lord has every right, having died and having risen again and having ascended and having poured out His Spirit. He has every right to say to us, receive my spirit. Be a living, breathing, walking human miracle of authentic godliness, that you will stand out in this world, some people will misunderstand you and Miss judge you. But I will bless you, and I will be with you. And I will see you through. That is God’s call upon us right now in every pastor. And

Sam Allberry
that is presumably the power in verse five that has been denied by this fake kind of evil that Paul is describing because the power being denied is the power that God really is giving gifting his love to undeserving sinners, and and changing them. This other stuff doesn’t change people.

Ray Ortlund
And in the succeeding verses, Paul talks about I’m sorry, Stott characterizes these false teachers as door to door salesmen sell selling Christian products. And some people are buying them. And he compares them to Jenny’s and jam Brees, who opposed Moses, who they oppose the truth. But he says in verse nine, they will not get very far for their folly will be plain to all as was that of those two men. So we don’t again, the word of God is not bound. We don’t need to worry about the fortunes of Christianity, the Lord Jesus Christ right now, at this moment on high is doing really well. And he’s got this. But in the meantime, until he comes again, while we’re living in these dark days, the moral character and doctrinal faithfulness and gospel culture, Sam, this is what we’re living for. We will not settle for anything less than authentic. Jesus given apostolic, biblical, authentic Christianity, which is the only power in all the world to liberate people from this prison camp of self love that right now they’re locked in.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, verse nine is, is encouraging because there’s, there’s God given limits. Even in a world awash with this kind of false sham Christianity. There are still limits to how far people can go, yes, at some point, people are exposed, and the folly is revealed.

Ray Ortlund
And the watching world has every right to expect of us Authentic Christianity. Yeah. No matter how adversarial that world might actually be, if we’re going to take the name of Christ on our lips, and presumed to be pastors and church leaders and so forth ministers of the gospel. We owe it to them, as well as we owe it to the Lord, we owe it to them to be authentic, and to give our lives to this no matter what the cost.

Sam Allberry
I would have question about verse five. I’ve never quite know what to do with this. The last three words verse five, avoid such people. In the previous passage, we were reflecting on how there are times when we need to correct opponents with gentleness with the hope that they might become restored and find repentance. Here, we’re being told avoid such people, those who are lovers of self and lovers of pleasure. How do we know when we’re in a I need to come alongside someone to correct them? Whether it’s someone I need to avoid?

Ray Ortlund
I’ve got a theory. I’m not sure I’m right. Let me and try it out and tell me what you think. Okay. He has just said, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. So these may well be people inside the Christian church who are not actually converted. And they see socially advantageous opportunities. Maybe they want to become elders, church leaders, it might be good for business. It might be good for social prestige. And so people have all kinds of motives. People like that tend to be successful in this world. They tend to get on really well. Timothy and others might be tempted to think well, they could really help build the church.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, maybe they’re trying to use us. Maybe we can use them at the same time. Yeah.

Ray Ortlund
And and so Paul is walling that possibility of saying no integrity there. There’s no future without integrity. And an appearance of godliness without its power, no matter how socially advantageous is a doomed region. Don’t go there. Don’t let those people into positions of influence. If they want to come and hear the Gospel, great. They might get saved. But avoid them. Don’t be attracted to them as if they could be advantageous to your ministry. Okay. That’s my theory. How does that strike you?

Sam Allberry
That strikes me is making a lot of sense. I was wondering whether, you know, impulses, gently Correct. Your opponents, I was wondering whether that process is what shows whether someone is someone who could come to their senses and whether someone needs to be avoided.

Ray Ortlund
I thought of the opponents as obvious opponents, and these people are harder to read. That is true. They might appear to be allies.

Sam Allberry
Yep. That’s that’s a good point. Well,

Ray Ortlund
I’m just wondering, now, verses 10 and 11. You however, and I love the way Paul pivots, I think four times in Second Timothy, having discussed other matters in pivots you however, Timothy, have followed my teaching my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patients, my love, my steadfastness, my persecutions and sufferings. Paul had a big story to tell. And Timothy had been fully initiated into it. And Paul had, Paul is not showing off when he says this, what he’s doing is he is further investing in Timothy, this is the inheritance I’m bequeathing to you. Yes, this is my hand off to you. Here is apostolic authenticity, and your pastoral ministry. Which persecutions I endured. Yet, I love this. I’m so thankful for this from them all. The Lord rescued me. Yeah, so we will face adversarial trends along the way, it might get really bad in our lifetime. But secondly, we will be delivered from them all, by the Lord Himself.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, if we just had the first nine verses of chapter three, it might feel as though you know, it’s just going to be a brutal world to live in. And that’s the end of the story, which is going to get crushed, out numbered by all of this. But that that pivot just gives us hope, isn’t it? However bad it seems around us, you know, from them all. And goodness, wasn’t all it was Paul was having to deal with? The Lord rescued me. I’m also struck just the phrase you however, you know, whatever else is going on out there. Whatever else is going on in the world around you. You have a responsibility to be distinctive. Yes, it what we can’t say as well. Yeah, but everyone else is none. I don’t care you however, yes, ever have an opportunity, and you don’t have to be like everybody else. I

Ray Ortlund
love that because and let me say this to every young pastor, you have in Christ, every right to think for yourself. Yeah. And you think your ministry through with your Bible open and with respectful attention to other commentators on Scripture and your denomination and, and others in this generation and in previous generations, but at the end of the day, you think your ministry through with integrity before the Lord and as Paul said earlier, he will give you understanding in all things. And by the way, you pointed out the word all at the end of verse 11. Yet from them all the Lord rescued me. Here’s why I love the word all in that verse. There have been times along the way Sam when i i expect Since pastoral ministry as such a time of difficulty, so adversarial, so profoundly disheartening. I wondered if I was going to bounce back. I wondered if this is going to take me out. I wondered, Is this the end of my ministry? Not because of my own misconduct because but because of hardship. So when I look at the word all I was I was, I know what it’s like Sam to be terrified that my ministry might be over. Because I’ve gotten body slammed in a way that I don’t even comprehend. Yeah. And I don’t think I’m lying there on the ground, bleeding and twitching. And I’m not sure I can get up again. So that word all is very important to me. I want to say to every young pastor, if you are, if you’re terrified the way I have been at times, if you are wondering if you’re even going to survive. The word all is in second Timothy 311. For you, yeah, the Lord will deliver you and rescue from them all, including this adversity you’re facing. And if you ever wonder about yourself, I want you to remember, Ray, the 73 year old guy in the podcast, because I am living proof that the steadfast love of the Lord never ceases and his mercies are new every morning. Yeah. And if the Lord rescued me, then the Lord will rescue you as well. Sam, you know exactly what I’m talking about.

Sam Allberry
Yeah. Right. One of the thoughts I’m having right now is that as pastors go through that kind of suffering, they’re not suffering on their own, because in many cases, there is a there’s a spouse, there are kids, for pastors wives, these things land was with incredible difficulty. I know that one of the human means God used to express his steadfast love to you as Janney. Yes. In fact, bonded the very first time you and I met, I remember you saying to me that God had us Janee to help you believe that God really did love you. And many of the pastors listening to us, I’m sure the majority of them will be married. And so it’s not just pastors who are having to cope with all this. It’s pastors wives, and that that leads to Jenny’s book, yes. Given in this instance, the crossway, but we’re talking about his one written by someone who one of us is married to. You can speak with a bit more insight. What was what is Jenny hoping for this book to achieve? And how would you commend it to people?

Ray Ortlund
Well, you’re right. So I mean, Jenny does understand from vivid personal experience. What it’s like to be married to a pastor. What it’s like to wonder, how do I get through this as the pastor’s wife, mean, Sam, there was a time when I was personally incapable of experiencing what the word encouragement is talking about. I knew that English word, but the experience I could not connect with Janney was able to, and she helped me through I got by on her spiritual coattails, her faith and her hope in the Lord. I leaned into that, and and she really did help me. I don’t know how she did that. Except that she is. She does not have the appearance of godliness with no power. She has the reality of godliness with its power. Yeah. And, and that is what the Lord has given to all of us, even when we are profoundly disheartened. So a wife will suffer as you say, Sam, will suffer profoundly with her pastor husband. That’s why Jenny wrote this book. She cares about ministry wives. So the full title is help. I’m married to my pastor, encouragement for ministry wives, and those who love them. So this would be great for the wives of an elder team, and other members of the church and so forth who want to understand what’s it like to be the pastor’s wife? Yeah. And how can I support and encourage the pastor’s wife and thereby, Sam, if we have pastors in whose heart Hope is alive And brimming and surging. And we have pastors, wives, who have the same sacred gift given to them and they are together, side by side, shoulder, shoulder, hand in hand, living in that hope, and in that confidence and strength, my goodness, what blessing will pour out upon us, and those churches, and upon us all through that. So, Jenny wrote that because that’s what she wants to see the Lord accomplish. In this generation, help, I’m married to my pastor, I just, I have I owe my wife a huge debt of gratitude. And, gosh, what if? What if 10 years from now there are 1000s of pastors all across the country who are saying, I owe my wife a huge debt of gratitude. She got me through this. Well, that would be awesome. We would love to see that strength.

Sam Allberry
Thank you, Ray. Thank you, to our listeners. We will we’ll see you next time.