Your Questions Answered

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Ray Ortlund
I don’t believe it’s the pastor’s job to notice and point out the unhealthiness in the church that he’s serving, just lift up Christ. I mean, how do you prioritize? Okay, which which aspect of dysfunction? Am I going to prioritize us first and which a second? I mean, that is not the ministry that God himself called us into. Go tell everybody how wrong they are. No, go tell everybody how right Christ is. How glorious he is. That’s our ministry.

Sam Allberry
Welcome to your not crazy gospel sanity for young pastors Ray, this is episode 10 of season two. Welcome to you, Ray. By the way, we had promised people that we would we would take some questions and work through them as he was I got a list of questions that people have emailed us or mentioned on Twitter or questions I’ve actually had people ask me in the flesh, so we’ll get to those in a moment. So my icebreaker question is What is your favorite icebreaker question?

Ray Ortlund
My favorite icebreaker breaker question actually is, what is your favorite place your favorite spot on the entire face of the earth? Where do you most love to be?

Sam Allberry
Which I think we’ve talked about before, but since it’s my favorite it is and since the last season I I’ve been back to the Scottish Highlands briefly. Our mutual friend Hunter came over for to visit for a week or so. And I was determined to drive him up to Scotland so I got to see Glencoe. I got to see just off Glencoe if you take a left as you’re approaching Glencoe, there’s a little lane that goes down to a place called Glenna teve, which may be the most beautiful spot in the highlands. Every time I go down there. I feel as though I could have a house here and I’d be very, very happy you you could all come and visit. But it’s just beautiful. You’ve got this beautiful Glen the mountains rising up either side, you’ve got this lock down at the end of it. And I’ve never been so seized with a desire to jump into some cold Scottish water and just swim because there’s Locke feels like Eden is at the other side of it. You just want to go in and explore and see what what’s on the other end of foretaste of the New Earth. Oh, yes. Yes, it will look a lot like Scotland unfinished. Oh,

Ray Ortlund
well, Jenny and I love Tennessee. We love California and the beaches and so forth. But it’s interesting. You had mentioned Scotland because the most magical moment on the planet I’ve ever had was in Scotland on the island of mol off the west coast. And I went to with a friend from our little village on the east coast of Scotland across the country to visit his mother because she had been recently widowed so we arrived and their their dog needed to be walked because his master dogs master had died. So we took the the Dougie on a walk up into the hills above tuber Maury there. And the only sounds I could hear I’d never experienced stillness and calm at this level. I mean, I’m from Los Angeles. Here we are in the in this hill overlooking this little village and all I can hear I can hear the wind through the grass. I can hear the occasional bleating of a sheep in this absolutely picturesque location and my friend giving his dog commands in Gaelic. Oh, because the dog didn’t understanding

Sam Allberry
dog and he spoke Gaelic

Ray Ortlund
so I said to myself, memorize this moment you will never see this again but maybe I will Sam in the New Earth.

Sam Allberry
Maybe you will and react I’ve got my phone up here because there’s some questions I people have asked through Twitter but the background to my Twitter is a beach called cameras Datuk beach, it’s on the way to my leg from Fort William. And as you look at this beach is beautiful pristine sands you look at and you can see the art of egg and the art of rum said that look at that.

Ray Ortlund
Oh my god. Oh my goodness. Let’s go.

Sam Allberry
See you guys. Well, Ray, let’s let’s take some questions I’ve got I’ve got one for me. When the podcast episodes came out. I did listen to them. I don’t wouldn’t normally listen to something I’ve been speaking on. But because there’d been a gap between us recording them. And then being released. I thought it because people would ask me about things that were talked about. But as I listened you made a comment early on in season one that and it was a sidebar that you you had a biblical justification for why small talk matters. And at the time I remember that happens. I think he will, I must ask him what that is, and I never got around to it. So I’m asking you now.

Ray Ortlund
Okay, sure. It’s an X chapter 10, Peter, and Cornelius together. Here’s Peter, this formidable Christian leader. He’s one of the original disciples, he’s a Jewish blueblood. And of course, the Gospel began as a renewal movement within Judaism and Cornelius is the first major Gentile convert. And so Cornelius is uncomfortable in meeting this amazing spiritual leader. And Cornelius bows down before Peter as Peter comes to his home. And Peter rightly is horrified and he says, oh, please stand up. You know, I too am a man he says. And then in Acts chapter 10, verse 27, there they are in the front yard of Cornelius his home. And the Bible says, And as Peter talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered. So there they are on the front sidewalk. Peter has lifted Cornelius up from this prostrate position, which was absurd. And they turn to walk into the house. And as they walk in the Bible says, Peter was talking with him. Ernest Hanken, in his amazing commentary in the book of Acts, argues that that’s purposeful that Peter was identifying, with Cornelius setting him at ease. Through casual conversation, he was showing his affability, his, his good natured friendship, new friendship with Cornelia. So I can see Peter turning to Cornelius and saying, Well, this is a lovely home did. Did you buy this new or did you? Was this here already? How long have you lived here? And oh, this is Mrs. Cornelius. Well, it’s nice to meet you. And what a lovely garden you have here on this is Cornelius Jr. Hey, who’s your favorite NFL team? You know, and and suddenly everybody relaxes? Yeah. And we’re all on the same level. Small talk is a big deal. It’s not all we do together. But small talk has the wisdom to sort of set human beings at ease. And to let them know you belong here. We’re all on the same level. It’s right there next chapter 10.

Sam Allberry
Right. That’s amazing. I was not expecting that. But you’re right. It’s a it’s an expression of solidarity, isn’t it? Yes. Well, I will think differently about small talk. Here’s here’s a couple that have come through on Twitter, we got some that people have emailed to us as well. How do you encourage a culture of grace among team leaders across the church? Is it primarily primarily caught or taught? And are there specific habits, patterns that can be built into church life to help with this? This is among the leadership team of a church. Yeah. Might be the lady. There’s a small group leaders? How would you answer the question? I think it’s both caught and taught, I think you need to see it and taste something of it. And then you will want to be taught in it. That would be my instinct is to start with it, you’re not going to get an entire church understanding and embracing gospel culture in one step. But perhaps you might start with the your eldership team or your staff team. Start with the circle, the smallest circle in which you have the most influence, and then work outwards from that. Because if the staff team catch the vision for it, if the if the elders catch the vision for it, you then have multiple ambassadors for it. Yes. And you can begin to work on the small group leaders. And if they catch it, their groups may catch it. So I think it’s not merely something that you just teach in an abstract way. It really helps to be tasting something of it. I’ve noticed that the the oldest meetings we have at Emanuel one of the items on the agenda every pretty much every time is sorrows and joys. We’ll open the Scripture we’ll pray and then the first item is almost always has everyone doing Yes. What are the what are the sorrows and joys at the moment that we can help one another with and pray about? And just that sort of opportunity to be real, to be safe to be honest Someone tasting that for the first time. That will make them want to grow in it to understand it more and to, to replicate it.

Ray Ortlund
There’s a reason for that pattern at Emanuel. Our three priorities are in this order Jesus community mission. It’s not Jesus mission community. But we put Jesus first like in a staff meeting. First thing we do, share verses scripture and pray. Then the next thing we do is not do the business of the staff. And how are we going to organize the ministry, the next big push and so forth? The next item is, how are you? Yeah, Jesus community. And then we get down to business and how we plan and strategize and pray and push forward. So people find that surprising. But in this world, it’s surprising when people are treated as if they matter.

Sam Allberry
Yeah. Okay, let’s say used to being treated as a sort of Master of utility. All right.

Ray Ortlund
So let’s surprise people with how much they matter, including environments where it’s a matter of employment. Yeah. That belongs there, too.

Sam Allberry
Yeah. That’s good. That’s good. We’ve had a few people ask a variation of of this kind of question. How do you deal with with people that are spending actually some time over the summer with the pastor friend who’s really on board with gospel culture? He sensing it’s going to be a battle with his church. So how do you deal with people in the church who are opposed to gospel culture? Without then turning them into enemies? How can you have gospel culture towards those who might even resist possible culture?

Ray Ortlund
Well, I’m grateful for the question, because so many pastors could answer a pardon me ask that question and also answer it. But the way the question has come to us, how do you deal with people? I personally find that articulation of the question a bit regrettable. John 13 does not say, deal with one another, as I have dealt with you. So when the language I deal with troubles me, what if people who don’t just grasp the opportunity that gospel culture represents the glory and beauty represents? What if we just love them? Now it might be that we need to be careful, they don’t actually become too influential in the structures, and in the polity, and formal leadership of the church, the elders and staff are are all tone setters, it’s perhaps the most important thing a leader does set the tone. So you might want to be careful about that. And get the people in the tone, setting roles, who really understand the authority in Scripture, the authority and beauty of gospel culture. But the people who don’t understand it, don’t respect it, don’t appreciate it. If we’re serious about gospel culture, we’re going to love those people. Yeah. And we’re going to enjoy them and respect them and include them to the, to the maximum degree that we’re capable of.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, I keep coming back to sort of one of our key verses in Romans 15 Welcome one another, as Christ has welcomed you. Jesus welcomed us when we weren’t interested in him. When we weren’t. We didn’t have regard for him yet. We weren’t seeking him out. We weren’t loving him. But he welcomed us even when we were opposed to him. So we, we must welcome one another, even when the one another we’re welcoming is not on board yet. Not on the same page, there’s there’s still a way actually of conveying gospel culture in the very strengths of opposition to it.

Ray Ortlund
And we had better be committed to that as pastors. Yeah. And if the tone setters, the actual formally established tone setters in the church, are not with you in your pastoral ministry in this way. Deeply accept that. And realize this is going to be a 20 year project, except it. Be patient. Know that God’s hand is on you. He will be with you and just start investing in the rising generation of leaders. play the long game, begin to gather men in their 20s and 30s. Care for them. Introduce them to the gospel at a deeper level, level, think through theological issues translated into gospel culture, lead them into honesty, lead them into gospel plus safety plus time, and so With all these wonderful experiences of the difference that Jesus makes, and just trust God, that in 510 1520 2530 years, that ship is going to turn. And you had the privilege of investing in that church way ahead of the great fruitfulness and the great harvest that eventually would come. Wow.

Sam Allberry
Wow. Another question. I think these these next two questions were from the same person when there is so much unhealthiness in the church, how do you decide which is used to prioritize? And then how do you point out unhealthiness, while also celebrating Christ at work in the church? Right, something that used to be on the weekly staff agenda at a manual was, I think I’ve remembered this right, celebrate the win. Tell us what that was, how that came to be and what it looked like right

Ray Ortlund
in our ministry there we always celebrated wins every evidence of grace that we saw, we wanted to notice that talk about that rejoice over that high five each other Thank the Lord. Whatever it might be, and so celebrating wins. Who wouldn’t love to be part of a church that is celebrating wins rather than frustrated by foot draggers? Plus Sam, I don’t know what you think. But let me just throw this out here. I don’t believe it’s the pastor’s job to notice and point out the unhealthiness in the church that he’s serving. Just lift up Christ. I mean, how do you prioritize? Okay, which which aspect of dysfunction? Am I going to prioritize us first and which a second? I mean, that is not the ministry that God himself called us into. Go tell everybody how wrong they are? No, go tell everybody how right Christ is. Yeah, how glorious he is. That’s our ministry. And we ourselves, Chris, so incomplete. And so flawed and flaky in some ways, pastors who point the finger at their church and say, I love you, but you need to know how wrong you are in this respect. Excuse me, if I get up and walk out? I don’t know where that man got his ministry. I don’t think he got it from the Lord. But what if we all together in all our need, go before the feet of Christ and see what he’ll do for people like us? Okay, I want to stay in that church, great things are gonna happen.

Sam Allberry
Yeah. So if if a pastor is in a church, and there is, you know, all kinds of mess and problems and, and all the rest of it, it’s, I mean, he’s right to lament those things, and to grieve those things. But the encouragement would be and some of those things he may need to talk about with one or two others as they pray for the church and try and figure out a way forwards, but Christ is is what will always help the root of every problem isn’t, isn’t he? I mean, whatever the dysfunction may be, if I address that I’m dealing with symptoms. Whereas if we, if we bring Christ to people, we’re dealing with the root of all the things that are dysfunctional.

Ray Ortlund
I just don’t believe that the Lord called me to go correct, everybody. Yeah.

Sam Allberry
Not everybody, maybe some of us now. Here’s another question. Is it ever the right time to encourage someone to move on to another church?

Ray Ortlund
Fascinating. What would you say about that? Sam?

Sam Allberry
I? Well, in one sense, yes. In that part of the rationale for the, the sort of the membership course we have at Emanuel the next steps course, we have a four week program for people to become members. Part of the function of that, I think, is to show people hey, this is who we are, as a church, this is what we’re about. This is what we celebrate, this is what we care about. And if that’s not where you’re at, as a Christian, and you want to bang some other drum in church every week, we may not be the right place for you. But there may be a church that bangs that drum, and that’s their big deal down the road that you can go to. So from that point of view, it could be right to say that to someone that the membership course I took when I came to manual, one of the other people on it had a particular issue about something we were saying as a church and they didn’t stay and that’s probably right, because they would have just stayed and been annoyed the whole time. They had a particular theological emphasis that we didn’t share. And Nashville being Nashville there’s, there’s a church for every theological emphasis, and they would have been much happier at that other church.

Ray Ortlund
The point is for everyone to find a place where they they truly belong and conserve the Lord and bear fruit. And sometimes that will mean we help them find that place. But we will always speak well. Of every other gospel preaching Jesus loving church will be their head cheerleader. They’re not the competition. Plus, I, a friend of mine, pastor friend said that in the first few months at his new ministry, he his words ran off a whole group of people. I believe that’s wrong. Yeah. That’s they called him to be their pastor. Yeah, is no right to run them off, then that’s, that’s a betrayal of the trust that was shown in him. So we never want to do that. But we might humbly and, and cheerfully, and respectfully help someone find another church where we know they would just have a great experience. Yeah, and grow and grow. And

Sam Allberry
sometimes, you know, we sometimes talk about this as if there’s a problem person, we need to move them on to somewhere else. Sometimes it might be that actually there’s a there’s a precious Christian, and we’re just not going to be the best place for them. There may be a problem with us. I can think of someone I, I knew at a previous church who had particular forms of social anxiety, particular vulnerabilities, and it made sense for them to be in a much smaller church that was more close knit, less intimidating. So we encourage them to join that church. And it wasn’t because they were a problem. It was actually because it was a weakness of, of our church, the size and, and other things to do with our church that we weren’t going to be the best place for them.

Ray Ortlund
You know, my I remember my dad saying once that he thought it was probably inevitable that the Lord would send someone or prep several people to a church that were hard to love people that were hard to love. And to test the sincerity of that church. Wow. This this, you talk about love? Do you mean it? Now I’m going to send you some unusual people. And they are from me. And I want to see you love them sincerely. So let’s not be shocked if we find odd, problematic people sent to us by the Lord so that we can make a statement to him that we really do love him. And we love them for his sake. Yeah, we mean it.

Sam Allberry
Maybe that’s how I ended up.

Ray Ortlund
That’s how we all ended up seriously. Yeah, a bunch of beloved misfits. Yeah.

Sam Allberry
And by the way, that you then begin to realize those misfits and oddballs are part of the glory of the church. That’s right. I used to be embarrassed about the sort of difficult people at church. If I had a friend coming, I was like, I don’t sit next to that person. But the night something flipped on me and I suddenly thought, no, that person is actually showing we’re for everyone. Isn’t that great? Yeah, I became proud of them. Absolutely. Right. Time is running out. But a quick last question, how can a church look after its pastor? Oh, wow. What was the verse you were Barnabas was ordained earlier this year, you brought a verse to the congregation

Ray Ortlund
that the verse that does come to my mind, is what our Lord said to Peter, strengthen your brothers and that that charge is given to every elder team. Strengthen the your brothers on the pastoral staff. Look out for them. I think it’s important for lay elders are one of the glories of the Protestant Reformation. And we have so much we revere men who voluntarily give themselves and sacrifice to serve as elders in a church. It’s also true if they haven’t been a pastor, some things they cannot understand some burdens. And so they have to take special care to look out for and protect the spirit of the pastor. The most important thing about their pastor they want to nurture and attend to is His Spirit, His morale, his heart, and how he feels about the ministry. So if because this is not like corporate America, where you’re just paid and expected to show up and be at your best this is I’m not disparaging corporate America, it’s it’s a wonderful reality in many ways, but we’re just doing something different in our Christian churches. There’s a beauty here and a glory here, that is legitimately expected because the glory of Christ is coming down. And that translates into many things, including lay elders, aware of sensitive to and, and, and attentive to the heart and the spirit of their pastors to keep those guys encouraged,

Sam Allberry
as wonderful. Thank you. Well, we’ll call that a day there, right? We’ll maybe do this again, if some more questions come in, over the coming weeks and months.

Ray Ortlund
Sam, thank you for the privilege of doing this with you. Thank you for the wisdom, you’ve brought the scriptural insight and the sincerity of your heart, the background of your experience, your honesty and vulnerability. You are a treasure. And we are so privileged and fortunate to have you in our midst. And if I could speak for all the listeners of you’re not crazy, they would say we love you, Sam.

Sam Allberry
Thank you, Ray, it’s a joy to do this with you.

Ray Ortlund
Okay, so throughout this season of you’re not crazy. We’re so thankful to crossway books for sponsoring this, and covering the costs, we really respect crossway. Sam, you have one of the books you have with crossway is what God has to say about our bodies. And that is such a striking title. Are you saying that God actually cares about our bodies of all things?

Sam Allberry
Yes, is the short answer to that. And I mean, he made he apparently God likes making human bodies because he’s made several billion of them by this point, and each of them were told fearfully and wonderfully made. So however we feel about our bodies are not an embarrassment to God. And one of the things I learned the most writing the book was, if if our bodies now as if we’re Christians, our bodies now belong to Jesus. The only person who needs to be pleased with our bodies is Jesus. And the body that is pleasing to Jesus is the body that is consecrated to him. Wow. So your body, whoever’s listening to this, whatever you look like now, and however you feel about however you look right now, your body right now this very moment, can be pleasing to the Lord. By being given over to him, it doesn’t have to be the kind of body that is going to be on the front cover of a fitness magazine, or is going to turn heads at a beach or is going to be on an advertising billboard. But a body sincerely given over to the service of Christ is pleasing to Him. I think we all need to hear that

Ray Ortlund
we do in our body obsessed body idolizing world. Wow, that’s really striking Sam. So every single one of us listening to this is uncomfortable in our skin. Yeah. Every single one of us looks at ourselves in the mirror and think we think, really? So what you’ve written then is the gospel for our bodies.

Sam Allberry
It is it. This is how Jesus is good news for our bodies.

Ray Ortlund
Oh, wow. That’s amazing. Sam, thank you for reading that book. It’s urgently needed. What’s the title again?

Sam Allberry
Well, God has to say about our bodies, published by crossway.

Ray Ortlund
Fantastic. Thank you.

Ray Ortlund
This is our 10th and final episode in Season Two, if you’re not crazy, yeah. And we’re Sam and I want to say we’re not the only guys in the room making this happen. We want you to to meet and we want to thank the two men who are the geniuses behind the scenes actually making it work. And Jose Figaro is is one of the two men and Andrew Lapera. But I can’t say your name properly. Jose, how do you say La Parra properly?

Sam Allberry
Not by law? Yeah. Okay. A pattern, that pattern.

Ray Ortlund
And Andrew, where do you live? I live here now. And Jose, where do you live in Guatemala? And these two guys have worked really hard to build out all this equipment in my study and yeah, we’re grateful.

Sam Allberry
We always say grateful they they know we don’t know what we’re doing, but they know what they’re doing. So any impression anyone has from this podcast that we know what we’re doing is because of their work. Yeah. They thank you for making this an absolute Enjoy yeah

Ray Ortlund
yeah let’s all be grateful to these two guys who’ve really worked hard to serve all of us so thanks guys.