Women’s Ministry in a ‘You Do You’ World

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Tony Merida: Welcome to “Churches Planting Churches” a podcast on the theology and practice of church planting. I’m your host, Tony Merida. Our church plants are filled with godly women who co-labor with their Christian brothers to proclaim the name of Jesus. They love the Lord and magnify him in their homes, neighborhoods, and workplaces. As pastors, we’re blessed to have them as partners in our gospel endeavors.

Our enemy, however, seeks to destroy these women. They are bombarded daily with temptations and pressures of unrealistic expectations. Society beckons them to embrace its ideology of self-love and its propensity for perfectly crafted Instagram stories. It’s crucial for our churches to be havens for gospel truth that equip them to resist the lures of temporary joy offered by the world, and instead, rest in the lasting joy done only through Christ.

Many church plants have thriving women’s ministries which draw women into a deeper relationship with their heavenly father and a richer fellowship with one another. We should encourage women’s ministry leaders and exhort our fellow brothers to treasure the female theologians among us.

With us, on the podcast today, to help us think through women’s ministry in our churches is Jen Oshman. Jen is a wife, mom, writer, and podcaster, and has served as a missionary and pastor’s wife for two decades on three continents. She and her husband Mark reside in Colorado. They have four daughters. Mark is the planting pastor and Jen is the women’s ministry coordinator at Redemption Parker church. Jen, welcome to the podcast.

Jen Oshman: Thanks, Tony. I loved your opening, so encouraging. Thank you.

Tony: Thank you. I got your bio right, correct?

Jen: You did.

Tony: Yes. So the church, just for clarification, is Redemption Parker. Parker is the location? Is that right?

Jen: That’s right. That’s our town.

Tony: Okay. Super. Super. So, Jen, first of all, your bio is just remarkable. You’re a wife, a mom, a writer, and a podcaster, and I should tune everyone into that podcast called “All Things,” which is not on the bio but you should have a look at that and have a listen to that. So like, how do you do that? How do you and your husband do all of this stuff? What are you drinking out there in Colorado?

Jen: Well, you know, I have to be totally honest and tell you that we’re spinning a lot of plates but those plates fall a lot of the time too. I mean, life is very imperfect and somewhat chaotic in our home. It’s just normal life. We’re gonna celebrate 21 years tomorrow and we have always been in ministry together. We got married in the middle of college in seminary and we’ve just been working side by side ever since. And I think that’s a unique thing and that’s just a gift of God. We enjoy working together and we spur one another on. And it’s a joy, I mean, there’s chaos, but it’s a joy.

Tony: Amen. Amen. I know that feeling. So talk to us a little bit about your backstory, you mentioned how you met Mark there for a moment but take us on the journey. How did you get up to this point?

Jen: Well, I came to faith in Christ as an eight or nine-year-old girl. My parents got divorced when I was eight and my mom started taking us to church. And as I was thinking about that story, just to encourage our listeners, to those pastors who are preaching maybe to the single mom and child in the pews who they’re not sure they’re connecting with, know that I heard the gospel at that age and received Jesus as my savior and I’m so grateful for that gift of grace.

But both Mark and I grew up in basically non-Christian context homes where Christ really wasn’t at the center, but I did meet him, I did know him and I’m so grateful for the Lord saving me at that young age. I went to college and that’s really where the Lord put me on the floor. I mean, he just knocked me on my knees and revealed to me that all that I had been living for was hollow and very self-focused and that he would give me healing, healing from my parent’s divorce, healing from other hurts in my lives, other things that were wounded but he really asked me to surrender myself to him. And that’s where my faith in Christ really took off as I just surrendered to the Lord and began to experience what it meant to have a relationship with Jesus. So, met Mark about that time, same thing was happening in his life. He was the first believer in his family and now his family actually attends our church. So that’s a pretty amazing story. But same thing happening to him and we both felt called to ministry in that season.

Tony: And where did you guys meet at?

Jen: Oh, Tony don’t make me tell you this story. We’ll just say we met in Denver when we were both new to the faith and still walking at old habits. People always ask, “Did you guys meet at church?” I’m like, “No. We met at a club.” Next question.

Tony: Oh, it’s okay. This is “Acts 29” podcast. We don’t bat an eye at that.

Jen: Well, it’s true.

Tony: Speaking of “Acts 29,” how does it feel to be a lady on the “Acts 29” podcast?

Jen: It’s great. I’m so glad to be invited. You know, we’ve lived overseas for a number of years. We’ve been back in the U.S. for four years and we’ve been in that network for three. And I have to tell you probably largely because of the efforts of Keristen Black in the U.S. West network. But I have just been so cared for and so ministered to by this network and I’m just grateful and I’m thankful for this opportunity too.

Tony: Amen. I’m thrilled to see just how ladies are flourishing in Acts 29 churches and want to see it happen more and more and so grateful to have you on here to talk some about that. What is it like speaking just in terms of a wife, what’s it like being married to a church planter? What’s your experience been? What are some of the highs and lows?

Jen: Well, it’s definitely been a wild ride since day one. And I mean, that’s just kind of walking with the Lord, right? Our lives when we follow Jesus and we have to lay our lives down as he asks us to and empowers us to, it just doesn’t look the way we planned. So like I said, we married in college in seminary, went to the mission field, moved to Japan right away, spend a long time there. We’ve got four daughters from that season of life then we moved to the Czech Republic.

Now we’re here in Colorado and we have been church planters everywhere that we’ve gone. And so I have to say that it has just required a ton of faith. It’s required a lot of flexibility, a sense of adventure, and a true belief that the Lord is going to hold us. All things are by him and through him and for him and to him and he’s gonna take care of us whatever he brings to pass. And so, the number one thing is it just requires faith, flexibility, and adventurous spirit.

Tony: Talk to us a little bit about Japan and the Czech Republic. What were you guys doing there?

Jen: So in Japan, Mark pastored a church for American military members who were living there. So living a life in Japan, in a Japanese way of life but ministering to Americans, so a really unique blend. We loved it. Our family thrived. It was just so many gifts of grace in that time. Now there were definitely hardships being across the Pacific from our normal way of life and our family and our normal support was tricky. We also adopted our fourth child while living there. She is Thai and she was 12 when we brought her home. So just a unique season, but a total gift.

And then feeling very burdened by the very atheistic country, Czech Republic had a drive and a desire to be church planters there in the Czech Republic. Less than one half of 1% of Czech’s believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. And so that drove us to a new adventure and that was a gift as well. And then we came home here to the U.S. So it’s just been one country after the other, really.

Tony: Excellent. Now you just wrote a book, this your first book, Jen?

Jen: Yes, my first book.

Tony: Okay. So Jen writes a lot for “Desiring God,” “TGC,” and is also a staff writer for “Gospel-Centered Discipleship,” so she’s obviously not new to writing. But I’m eager to talk about this book “Enough about Me: Find Lasting Joy in the Age of Self.” And so talk to us about it. First of all, it released when?

Jen: This week. It was born a few days ago.

Tony: And published by Crossway. Is that correct?

Jen: That’s right.

Tony: Okay. I’m glad I got that right, that would’ve been really bad. But obviously, a great publisher and says a lot about the book. Tell us about the book and how this whole journey began, why did you choose to write on this, and what would be like the thesis? What is your argument in the book?

Jen: Well, I really wrote this book out of a burden just for my sisters and acknowledging myself that we are living in an age of self this age that says everything’s about self-help, do it yourself, make yourself, be yourself, very focused on just looking inside, determining who you want to be, you know, creating your identity, and then having to conjure up the energy and the willpower to get there and to be that self-made woman, and just seeing that proclaimed in conferences and books.

And even, Tony, I hate to say it, but even somewhat in the Christian world, in some of our Bible studies and some of the things that Christian publishers are putting out there and just feeling this heartache for women, knowing that this message is ultimately just exhausting as we look to ourselves for everything we are just missing what the giver of life intended. And that is that we would be abiding with Jesus that we’d be rooted, built up, established in the gospel that we would live and walk by grace through faith. There’s so much power and so much freedom and lasting joy in that way of living. And so I wrote it with a broken heart and also just I think some anger of like the world is telling us a false message and I want to get in there and share with my sisters what is true and remind myself of what is true.

Tony: Now I’m somewhat familiar with some of these books that are, you know, promoting a vision contrary to yours. I can’t rattle them off the top of my head and I don’t want you to necessarily name authors or book titles, but what are some of these messages that are being communicated that your book is trying to provide a bit of a corrective on?

Jen: Well, women who are my age, I’m 41, and so I think a decade ahead of me, a couple of decades behind me, we have grown up in this setting that has said you can be anything you want to be, you know, just imagine who that is, reach for the stars and you can get there. And the reality is, I think a lot of us are here. We’re here at 20, 30, 40, 50, and we’re finding out that’s not actually true. It’s not true, I can’t be anything I want to be. Or maybe we’re arriving at the finish line at the goal and going, this is not what I thought it would be, this does not feel as satisfying and as amazing as I was told it would feel.

And so there’s a ton of just discouragement and disillusionment around us even depression. We’re really seeing a mental health and emotional health crisis amongst women right now. There’s just huge levels of anxiety, depression, and even suicide is up quite a bit amongst teen girls and women. And so this message is telling women that they are all they need and we were not created that way, that is just objectively not true. We need our creator and our maker to sustain us, to give us new life, and to help us with each day. And so that’s the cry of this book, that’s the cry of my heart is that as women we would not look within. You know, Instagram is telling us this, throw pillows, coffee mugs, t-shirts, concerts, conferences, I mean, we’re getting this message in our social media feed all day, every day. And so, you know, it’s like a megaphone and I just want to come back with a response that it’s not actually true.

Tony: So good. So good. Talk to us about the flow of the book not necessarily chapter by chapter but kind of how is the book arranged and how do you take the listeners on that journey? Listeners, I mean readers. Sorry.

Jen: Right. I tried to kind of go back and forth between like this is what the culture is saying, this is what you’re seeing in your Instagram feed and maybe even in that Bible study, that’s on your nightstand, here’s this message of self that is coming through. And it’s coming through in a very savvy way because you know who doesn’t want to be self-reliant? Who doesn’t want to sort of worship themselves? We all think we’re great. We all want to rely on ourselves. So it’s a savvy message.

So I try to contrast it with really the startling and stark and counter-cultural words of Jesus who says, “You need to lay your life down. If you want to find your life, lay your life down. Hide your life in mine. Die to yourself. Carry your cross and follow me.” That’s where lasting joy is. So in the book, you know, I try to write in a tone that is relatable and conversational because this is a struggle I have with myself on a daily basis still laying down my life and walking with Jesus rather than walking for my own glory and comfort and ease and try to just kind of go back and forth because the message is so…we’re so saturated with it that I think it’s hard to see. And I just want to keep pointing that out that this is what it’s saying.

Tony: And I know you have a burden for the ladies but this is obviously a message for dudes also. I’m just thinking just how social media promotes the self-centeredness, you know, idol that we have. I haven’t read the book, Jen. I hope you will send me a book or I shall buy a book but I’m looking forward to reading it.

Jen: Consider it done.

Tony: And sending it to folks in our women’s ministry at IDC. It looks like Jen Wilkin has written the foreword to it?

Jen: Yes.

Tony: So Jen is a baller as well, just saw her previously this week. So I’m excited that ladies like you are writing a gospel-centered, gospel-driven content. We all need to hear it. So well done.

Jen: Thanks.

Tony: How do you feel about seeing a book like you’ve held it in your hands now, right?

Jen: Yeah. It’s pretty surreal. I mean this whole thing has been a little bit unexpected, didn’t necessarily see this journey coming. Like I said, that’s walking with Jesus that’s what will happen, but it is a privilege. And, of course, I’m struggling, you know, a little bit with the fear of man, like, oh, gosh, did I say it right? Did I say anything stupid? What are people gonna think? But really, I’m just trusting in the Lord and trying to do what my book says and what Hebrew says, fix your eyes on Jesus, and trust him with this and everything else.

Tony: I remember I wrote my first book and I got it in my hands and I didn’t want to read it because it’s like out there permanently and I felt so exposed, you know, I can’t hide anything it’s all out there. I didn’t want to read any reviews or any comments. I’m just like leave me alone, guys. I’ve just said it now I’m gonna play basketball, you know.

Jen: I can relate 100%.

Tony: Well, just know I’m cheering you on. Okay. I haven’t read it. I’m sure it’s great. If there’s heresy, I’ll let you know, but I doubt there’s anything like that.

Jen: Okay. Good. Perfect.

Tony: So what do you do? We have a lot of people listening to this podcast who are obviously “Church Planting” podcast, church planters, pastors, preachers, but within the “Acts 29” tribe in particular it’s a theologically driven group of guys and a group of ladies. And we just love content, we love books, I mean, we’re talking about a book right here. And so there’s always an interest and always a question about how do you find time to do X, Y, and Z on this podcast, rhythms and time management are very practical issues that always surface. So in your own journey, four daughters, wife, women’s ministry. How did you find time to write this book? What were your writing rhythms like and how long did it take?

Jen: Well, I have to tell you, it was not pretty. I wrote this book at the kitchen table with the earbuds in whenever I could grab some time to do it. I think what the blessing was that I just had a burning desire to say what I wanted to say and so that drove me. And then I was seeing the shrapnel of the age of self in my real life on a daily basis and so that’s what really drove me. And I just had to say…and my kids are older, you know, they’re 12 now. The youngest was 12 or 11 when I turned in the manuscript. And so there was some freedom there. They could heat up a frozen pizza and we could move on and that was good. I couldn’t have done this when they were toddlers.

And the Lord was growing me, you know, I mean, there’s almost two decades of ministry underneath this book and it took that time for me to be in women’s ministry and be in relationship with women and be in the word and know the character of God. But I can’t say that I have any great rhythms to share except I did wake up really early a lot of the time and I did put in the earbuds and drank the coffee and prayed for Jesus to help me and just sat down at that kitchen table and got it written.

Tony: Amen. That’s real talk right there, I know that feeling. Hey, let’s transition for a bit and talk about how pastors can help women especially in this area, just what challenges are women in general facing? What advice would you give us who are pastoring ladies in the church today?

Jen: That’s a great question. I got these questions ahead of time, so I actually sent out a bunch of texts earlier this week and said, “Hey, what do you guys think? What are your challenges? What are the concerns?” You know, one of your questions was what would you want your pastor to know? And so these were really insightful for me. I appreciate just the process of getting ready for this podcast and digging and asking. But there were some themes as I texted, you know, about a dozen women, there were some themes that came back that I thought were really interesting. One from the married women was just this heartfelt desire that their husbands would be discipled.

You know, women’s ministry is so unique and it’s such a treasure. I don’t know how it is in the rest of the country, I can only speak to Colorado, but in Colorado it feels like there’s a little bit more flexibility for women to be invested in ministry whereas the men are working, traveling. We’re in a suburb, you know, affluence is a problem here. And so there’s just a lot of work, you know, men are working long hours and women can be maybe more involved.

And so that was interesting to me that that was sort of unveiled that I wish my husband was discipled better or I wish my husband was growing more in the Lord. You know, the women saying my faith would grow if my husband’s faith would grow. And so I’m not sure what to say to pastors about that but to know that that is a burden I think of women in the church. And then single women feeling like maybe a bit unseen or not invited to the table as much or just inadvertently, and I know, I think it’s by accident, but just maybe this focus on families and parenthood that leaves our single friends feeling like, you know, these messages aren’t for them or these contexts aren’t for them.

And so I guess in both, you know, both areas, just inviting the insight as you are on this podcast, inviting the insight of women, asking them what’s going on, asking them their view and for their input, if pastors would simply take the time, I think to draw out the women in their congregations and ask them, what are your burdens and how can we serve you? I think that would be tremendously helpful in any church congregation.

Tony: That’s excellent. I know in my pastoral prayer time, I wrote this recently on a blog like I try to pray for singles every week and it’s amazing how many responses I get to that and it’s not long. I mean, I’m praying through the various ages and stages of people in our church. So it includes marriage, it includes widows, it includes teenagers, etc. And we’ve also had, you know, singles live with us as we do now. We’ve had a house guest for the last, I don’t know how many years. And that also helps to be aware that there are single adults that hear messages differently, they have various issues going on in their life, the grief and struggles that we need to know about.

And if pastors, I think are not in conversation and in a relationship in a healthy way with singles in the church, the church can feel like, you know, like the default application is for married people and families. So I think whatever we can do to listen and include that, you know, application, you know, the better off we are. I don’t know what Mark does but I also send my sermon out to various groups in our church, including a handful of women ahead of time. I get feedback that includes single women, it also includes my wife who for years now has been editing my sermons. Do you do that for Mark too?

Jen: Yes. I mean, not specifically editing, but the whole family is discussing that sermon pretty much all week and then he’s practicing it and sharing it with us. And, you know, he meets with a handful of men and a lot of people are hearing it before Sunday morning but I like your idea of, you know, really sending it out to specific different populations. That’s good.

Tony: Editing might be a strong word. Kimberly is not editing my sermon, I should say, but she will, you know, temper me at times.

Jen: She’s previewing it.

Tony: Or say, “You should consider this.” But we too on Wednesday night or some night during the week, I’m usually reading the text to the family at the table and we have a conversation. And this week right now we’re going through Ecclesiastes and at the end of chapter seven there’s this, you know, very interesting statement that the writer makes that he’s talking about righteousness and he’s only found one righteous man out of a thousand, but he’s never found one righteous woman. And so I was like, listen to this, listen to these guys, just wait for it, it’s the last verse in the chapter and I want to hear your reaction to it. And so when I finished reading it, the look on everybody’s face was amazing, but my son, Joshua who’s adopted from Ethiopia, his look was priceless. And I was like I wish I could just get your face and put it on the screen, you know, while I’m preaching.

Jen: See this is why we need the whole counsel of God. This is why all of scripture is so important to interpret scripture with scripture, right?

Tony: That’s right. And, you know, Solomon is not one to be judging, you know, character. He’s got all these wives and concubines. So he’s probably looked in the wrong place for a righteous woman.

Jen: I’m definitely gonna be tuning into your church’s sermon this weekend. I will be listening to that podcast for sure.

Tony: I’m trying not to emphasize that verse too much.

Jen: That’s good.

Tony: Hey, women’s ministry, local church, you’ve mentioned that, you know, it’s not uncommon to have women’s ministries in churches but what concerns you about some women’s ministries in churches?

Jen: I think there’s really a path that has a ditch on each side when it comes to women’s ministry what I see generally speaking. On one side, you’ve got women’s ministry that is really feelings focused that looks at the population of women at the church and says, how can we minister to these women which is a good question, but the ditch on that side is far more emotive and maybe lacks substance. It’s content towards being more like a coffee hour where we share our struggles, maybe even participate in some gossip on accident or on purpose. I mean, it’s feelings-based and lacks theological substance, lacks prayer time. It’s more feelings and discussion-based. I feel like that is one ditch.

On the other side of the road, I feel like there’s another ditch where maybe church leaders are so concerned about women’s ministry falling into error or women not being up to the task of opening the word alone without their pastor or whatever. And so the women in that congregation are more stifled or just not given the resources and the freedom and the cheering on that is needed for women’s ministry. And so women’s ministry is not really happening in that context because the women are afraid or intimidated of doing the wrong thing. So I feel like those are two ditches that are on two different extremes but they both exist. And I think even in “Acts 29,” they might exist, you know, not to the extremes that I’ve described them but maybe we can easily err, you know, even on a given week, anybody can err on one ditch or the other. And so those are my primary concerns, those two sides of the spectrum.

Tony: No, that’s excellent. So what does it look like at your church? What does women’s ministry at Redemption Parker look like?

Jen: Sure. We just celebrated our third birthday. So we’re not, you know, we’re a smaller church, not a lot of and we’ve purposed to not be very program heavy given our cultural context here in Colorado programs to start are probably not a good idea. So women’s ministry, we’ve gotten, you know, these normal things called gospel communities, you might call them small groups or whatever and we have those for everybody, both genders. Inside those, we have something called core groups, those are more like discipleship and accountability groups, and those are single-gender.

So women’s ministries is kind of in addition to that we would say, you know, if you have to pick, we’d love for you to go to a gospel community and a core group primarily if you only have time for one. But if you’ve got this extra time or maybe your husband’s not a believer, or maybe you want to bring your friend or your neighbor to a context that’s only for women where women can be studying the word together in a unique way then we invite them clearly to women’s Bible study. We’ve got one during the day and one at night in an effort and hope to meet the needs of women who are available at different times of day.

And we basically go two months on one month off and during those two months, we’re in the word. We’re doing a study that maybe somebody as a member who’s been trained and identified as having some teaching gifts is leading women through the word or we might use a resource by Jen Wilkin or Nancy Guthrie or something like that. But two months of Bible study and then one month off and in that month off we try to just encourage ladies to get together. We have events to kind of draw in new people but the desire is that there would be a depth and a breadth of ministry amongst women meaning that we would be going deeply in the word but also broadly across different needs and different levels of maturity and even reaching out to our non-believing sisters.

One other thing that I just wanted to mention because it’s just been a huge blessing to me is this school year we’ve been following the school year schedule. Mark’s had a men’s leadership cohort and I’ve had a women’s leadership cohort, and these are not elders by any means, but it’s people who are already leading in some way in our community. Maybe they host the gospel community, maybe they’re leading in youth ministry, or they’re doing something on Sundays or in some way they’re leaders.

We just bring them together once a month separately. I meet with the women. He meets with the men. And we’re usually reading some kind of book that helps us, some kind of resource that helps us process a theological issue. But then we’re just sitting around the table and thinking through what are the real needs in our community? What are the theological needs? The felt needs? What are we missing? What are our blind spots? And having those 10 other women around the table with me has just been so eyeopening and so helpful. And my desire is to equip them and encourage them, send them to trainings, do whatever I need to do so that they can be doing women’s ministry in their homes and in their own communities, as often as they feel led.

Tony: That’s good. You know, one of the concerns I’ve had through the years, it’s not just with women’s ministry, it’s with any ministry in the church is trying to ensure that there’s alignment within the church, right, from kind of a pastoral vision and leadership and that we have no ministry kind of running off by itself. And I know from what you’ve just said and from your own story and background, you guys work in tandem, you and your husband, but what can ladies do to ensure that there’s not this kind of Maverick ministry running off by its side but we can, you know, you guys can do application in the lives of women to, you know, what the church is talking about at a bigger level.

Jen: That’s a great question. You know, I do think there can be a distance between women’s ministry and the pastor and the elders, and that can be for a number of reasons, but that distance is not good. We need to seek to be coming together, as you said in alignment and unified. And so my encouragement to any woman who’s leading women’s ministry is to be conversing with your elders, ask them for time, meet with them, show them what you’re gonna go over for the year. And don’t be satisfied with just like, “Oh yeah, yeah, whatever you guys are doing is fine.”

You know, I would say prayerfully and kindly press your pastor just to be more involved and aware of what it is that you’re teaching because submitting to that God-ordained authority of our pastors and our elders is so good. We will be blessed with that involvement from our pastors. Now the other side of that coin and something that actually came up when I asked a number of women, what would you want your pastor to know? A number of ladies had said, well, their experience in various churches over the years has made them feel like perhaps their pastors are threatened by women who want to teach and lead.

So they wanted me to say, you know, I want pastors to know we don’t want the pulpit. We don’t want to be leading in some big way. We just want to know the word of God and we want to be equipped to teach the word of God in the context that God ordains and gives us to teach and lead. And so, you know, it’s a two-sided coin. Women go to your pastors, get your elders on board, but pastors and elders invite the women in and don’t be threatened by that.

Tony: Very good. Very good. So if ladies out there wanting to start a book study on some particular book out there today other than your own book, Jen would there be two or three other kinds of go-to books perhaps that have been helpful in your own women’s ministry?

Jen: I think, you know, I’ve already mentioned Jen Wilkin and Nancy Guthrie. I mean, those are two names that I always am throwing out because those are women who are just exegeting the words so well and communicating it in a way that any woman on the maturity spectrum can relate to. I think the woman who comes to women’s Bible study, who’s not a believer and the woman who’s been walking with the Lord for decades is going to learn from Jen Wilkin and Nancy Guthrie. So I always want to say them.

I love Apologetics and I love studying culture. I love understanding where theology meets anthropology. And so women that I’m reading who are doing that well are like Alisa Childers, Rebecca McLaughlin, Nancy Pearcey, Jackie Hill-Perry. Those are some go-tos of mine for when I want to understand what’s going on in culture through a theological lens, those are the women I go to.

Tony: That’s like the Avengers, you just listed off there.

Jen: Yes.

Tony: Wonder women. That’s a new conference. Jen Oshman, author of “Enough about Me: Find Lasting Joy in the Age of Self.” Also, check out her podcast called “All Things.” Jen, real quick, just tell us about the podcast and how can people listen to it?

Jen: Sure. Well, “All Things” is on iTunes, you know, Stitcher, Spotify, wherever it’s on, most places, you can find it on my website, jenoshman.com. But it’s really I do on that podcast what I just said my passion is, and that is where theology meets anthropology, where the Bible meets culture and trying to look at cultural events through a biblical lens.

Tony: Jen, thanks so much for being on the podcast. We hold you in the highest regard. Grateful for your labor, your example, and pray nothing but the Lord’s best, and may his grace continue to shine upon you and Mark and your church.

Jen: Thank you, Tony. This has been really encouraging to me. Thanks so much.

 

Tony: Be well.