Let’s Talk: The Importance of Boundaries

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Jackie Hill Perry
Hey Saints. Welcome to Let’s Talk a podcast from The Gospel Coalition Podcast Network where we seek to apply biblical wisdom to everyday life. My name is Jackie Hill Perry, and I’m here with Melissa Kruger and Jasmine Holmes. And if you’re enjoying this podcast, we hope you will spread the word that you will evangelize about it on social media. Melissa, what is it that we’re talking about today?

Melissa Kruger
Today we’re going to talk about the concept of boundaries. Yay, Jasmine’s favorite. I know and this is a boundary. Yeah, this is this is a tough kind of another tough topic, man. I feel like I’ve said that every time. Complicated. Yeah, it’s complicated. It’s complicated. I feel very complicated with this one. Because I like, you know, I struggle with people pleasing. And so therefore, these are difficult for me to have with people because I want everybody to be okay. Right. And so can you explain to us even the concept of boundaries and here’s the thing about people pleasing, you can also hide it under I’m just being loving. Right? Right. You know,

Jackie Hill Perry
Because boundaries sounds self centered race, people bring up Philippians 2 all the time

Melissa Kruger
Yes, made himself nothing took on the nature of a servant.

Jasmine Holmes
Yeah, so let’s look at that. Look at the Philippians. Two, I think that’d be a really good place to start. Yeah, ready? She’s ready to go. Yeah. That’s every time I am. You know, I’m like, Hey, what are some questions you have about boundaries? It’s like what about Phillipians 2 like, when, like, how do you suppose that boundaries of that, but I think even before you read Philippians, two, God has boundaries, boundaries are just there. They’re places that you can’t step outside of. So don’t you can eat every single tree in the garden except for that one. Yeah. That’s a boundary. Yeah. You get married, you sleep with your wife, usually with your husband boundary. That’s a boundary we are thankful for. Right? Children obey your parents boundary. That’s a boundary. So the Bible is like, full of boundaries. I just so it’s kind of, it’s a little bit disingenuous, and people are like, well, we’re boundaries in the Bible. It’s like, Dude, we’re Christians. We got to follow like, we were following. Yeah. Boundaries all the time.

Melissa Kruger
Sabbath is a big bound rage, you know, work, right. I mean, that’s a boundary that says you need to rest. You know, it’s like, it’s like a weekly timeout. You just need to take a break.

Jackie Hill Perry
And Jesus even had boundaries, which I think would be really cool to talk about, after you read Philippians 2.

Melissa Kruger
Should I start with “Let each of you look not only…”

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah, just enough, okay. Because I think everybody knows what we’re talking about already, but great, you know,

Melissa Kruger
Great. So it says, let each of you look not only to his own interest, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who though he was in the form of God did not count equality with God, I think to be grass, but made Himself nothing. Taking the form of a servant being born in the likeness of men and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross, therefore, God has highly exalted and absurd on him the name of those above every name, so that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow in heaven and on earth, and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father, He loves good.

Jackie Hill Perry
Scripture.

Jasmine Holmes
That’s enough. My favorite part about that passage is the part where it says that he did whatever people wanted him to do, because he was with me make them happy. Yeah, where was that? No, because it said, you know, that’s not either. nicely. Okay. Okay. Well, what about the part where people had a right to his time and had a right to his ministry? Because his ministry was about serving people. But but that part? Isn’t they’re not there. Mm hmm. It’s almost like Philippians two is about humility and obedience to God. And not being a doormat to people.

Melissa Kruger
Which is crazy. Yeah. is in a sense of boundary.

Jackie Hill Perry
It is a it’s a huge boundary. I’m not here for you. Yeah. What she said more than once.

Melissa Kruger
and Paul said, if I was a servant of men, I wouldn’t be a servant of God. Right. Yeah,

Jasmine Holmes
Right. That’s good. I mean, Jesus said to his own mother, like, Yo, yeah, that’s, I’m note here for you. Yeah. Right. Yeah. From the age of 12. Jesus was setting boundaries with his own family. Kind of like I’m this is I’m supposed to be in the house. Lord, this is where I’m supposed to be. And also he had 12 disciples. Yeah, well, really close cycles. And then other 12 He had favorites. Yeah, he had it. Yeah. Like closely.

Melissa Kruger
Disciple. Yes. And took on the Mount of Transfiguration. And he didn’t take them all.

Jasmine Holmes
He didn’t take them all and he had one who he loved. Yeah. Which, by the way, that’s always funny to me when I’m reading John, like the disciple whom Jesus loved. It’s like It’s you. He knew his voice. Like, it’s me. I’m the favorite. But also he went off by himself a lot to like, he was like, I need time away from you, so that I can go off to myself not to get a pedicure, or a manicure, but to spend time with God and to refresh himself from the Father. Yeah. Which is really important. And so I think, as believers boundaries are what enable us to serve God to the utmost of our ability by prioritizing the mission that He’s given us on this earth.

Jackie Hill Perry
That’s a really good definite Yeah. Did you create that yourself? I like it.

Melissa Kruger
Thanks. After the shame book, boundaries might be a next good book. Yeah,

Jackie Hill Perry
You probably have a chapter on boundaries. And

Jasmine Holmes
I definitely will have a chapter on boundaries there for sure. For sure, because boundaries to call shame. And like, Why did boundaries cause shame? Do you think?

Jackie Hill Perry
Again, I think you feel like you’re being selfish. You know, you feel like, I am supposed to be assessable and available to everybody and be able to do as many things as possible, especially in the church, as a Christian, you feel like man, like my, my primary call is to be humble, and to consider other people better than me. Right? And so like, what what right? Do I have to say? No, I can’t write should it. But I think when you the way you laid it out and say know that this actually protects me. And guards me from giving myself to anything that takes me away from the overall mission. That’s actually really insightful.

Jasmine Holmes
In starting with me, you just kind of start with what’s what’s most important, what has God called you to do? What is most important to you? Well, I’m married. So earthly calling for me, has a lot to do with my husband has a lot to do with my children. And then beyond that has a lot to do with my local body, with my friends. And you know, and so, really, it helps me to write down, like, these are the things that are most important to me, these are the things that I have to protect. Yeah. And so when things are being asked of me that don’t protect time with my family time with my husband,

Melissa Kruger
That’s good, because only you Jasmine can be Philips wife, right? Only you can be your children’s mother, there’s no substitute, right? Whereas somebody you say, to a speaking engage, right? Maybe that’s a yes. For someone else that they’re dying to have. Yeah, you know,

Jasmine Holmes
I say that all the time with and you know, Melissa, like being a teacher. Being a teacher in the past, you know, quitting, my job was really scary. Because I was like, Oh, my goodness, like I’m, and so I was talking to Winnie and he said, What did you What was the first week of school? And he was like, What does your class do today without you? And I was like, sweetie, they replace you. Like, you feel so important. And then you quit. And then they replace you with somebody else. Like, there’s always somebody else who can take your place and do. But there’s nobody else who could be wins mama, there’s somebody else who can be Philips wife. Right now, I’m gonna guess I could die and he could marry him. But right now,

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, but it’s helpful for us to even be able to triage, like, what is the what are the things only? We can do? Right? And what are the things where we’re, maybe we should like, say, No.

Jasmine Holmes
Yeah, and even single people are allowed to have boundaries. Like I often talk about boundaries from the perspective of a woman who is a wife and a mother. Because that’s what I am. But a lot of times I think the church imposes on single people because they’re like, Well, you don’t have a family like you can you can serve us in all kinds of ways. But even single people have a calling from God, they may have a job that is a calling for them. They may have like, yeah, priorities to their family of origin priority to their family, family, their roommates, their, you know, their mentors there. And so I think just, I want to be careful to say that too, because I think sometimes when I talk about, you know, being a wife and being a mother and having boundaries in my family, people accept that more readily than a single person who just has learned how to say, No, I cannot babysit. Yeah, because I have other priorities tonight, or I guess I have other priorities right now.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah.

Jackie Hill Perry
As you’re talking, one thing I’m thinking about is how, you know, one hindrance to creating boundaries is like this, just off view of humility, which is, again, I have to be everything for everybody. But I also think it’s, for me, personally, it’s this pride of achievement, which is it’s harder to create boundaries when you want to be able to do everything, right. Yeah, I want to be able to write all the books I want to be able to go to school at a certain pace I want to, but it’s like I think when I saw that it there’s a cost to not having boundaries, not only in your relationships, but also in your relationship, relationship with God but even like in yourself, just your your mental status, and your emotional health and all of it. There’s a risk to not you know, setting those types of lines in place.

Melissa Kruger
Yes. And how do we discern then, between difficult because sometimes it’s hard to say no, because I’ve said no to certain projects that seem really yet that you wanted to do. I Yeah. I mean, and and yeah, I’ve said, but then how do we discern between that? And when it’s time to say a sacrificial? Yes. Like this? Yes. may cost me something. Whether it’s just spending time with someone who’s difficult in the church, you know, I mean that. That’s a sacrificial Yes, yeah. But saying, Hey, I’m going to open up my home, even though it’s going to wear me out. And I’ve got friends. I don’t need more for air like, right, but I’m going to open up my home because somebody out there may need a friend. Yeah. Like, how do we discern? And I like what you said. What is God calling me to do but how even discern where? Which between between the two? Like, what’s a guilty? No, there’s a guilty? Yes. Versus a sacrificial? Yes.

Jasmine Holmes
There’s a verse in Proverbs that haunts my dreams. Do not withhold Good. From whom it is due. When it is in your power to give it Yes. Yeah. And be honest. Yeah. Is it in your power? Yeah. Right now, lots of stuff is not in my power. I am eight months pregnant. I have two kids. I’m writing two books I’m releasing yet a lot is not trying

Melissa Kruger
“I’m trying to take off your plate.”

Jasmine Holmes
Yes. We just had like, I just had a meltdown last night. Last night, I call it potato-ing. And when I’m just like, Ah, it’s too much. I can’t handle my life. And Melissa’s like, there’s a two letter word called. No. Cuz I think because I talk about boundaries. So much. People think that I just been like, automatically, just so good at them. And then I’ve also had people be like, oh, you know, it’s your personality type. You just really get to boundaries. Okay, but I’m still a woman. I’m still in evangelical circles. Like, I still have shame around boundaries and saying no. But is it? Is it in your power? To get it? Do you have time? Like, can you make time? Um, are you saying no, because you because there’s literally something else that is demanding your time and attention? Are you just saying no, because you just yeah, you someone do it?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. And that’s, that’s hard to discern sometimes. Yes. I mean, because I can get guilted into lots of things. Oh, totally. Just with my in myself

Jackie Hill Perry
Well, it’s not even even guilted into, it’s shamed into. Because saying no is not wrong.

Melissa Kruger
That’s right. Yeah, that’s right. My husband has been really helpful on me with this, to even point out to me, and he doesn’t mean this in a narrowing sense. But stay in your lane, like, do you want to, like write up that article? Do you want to talk about that, do you because some people come to you with book ideas? And he’s like, but do you even want to talk about that’s how much you’re gonna have to talk about that topic? A lot, right? Or whatever you do. And so, sometimes I think we have to ask to, what can I do in particular, that it’s going to help in the world of the kingdom? Yeah. What what, how has God gifted me uniquely? And I think that can sometimes look, I don’t think anyone’s really unique, we gifted to help in the nursery. Maybe some people are more than others. Sometimes we just need to, yeah, sometimes we just need to do things because people need it setting up chairs, we can all do that. Right? If we can walk you I’m saying like, there are some things we just do to serve.

Jasmine Holmes
And sometimes it’s literally not in your power to do it just because you’re at capacity. Yeah, like emotionally, like, okay, so Luke 5:15-16. But now even more the report about him when abroad, this is Jesus, the great crowds gathered to hear Him and to be healed of their infirmities, but he would withdraw to desolate places to pray. There are people who need healing. Where are you going? Jesus? Yeah. But Jesus’s priority was not to heal. Everybody in the world, Jesus, his priority was to come to live, to die to raise again for his elect. Yeah, there were other things that he did along the way that were so impactful for so many people. But they were people who literally were around Jesus, who were so close to him, who were probably so close, they could touch him, that did not get healed by him. Yeah,

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah. And I think you I think, to a certain degree, you have to be honest with yourself, about your nose and your yeses. Because I think if you are a person that is prone and inclined, everybody’s prone to selfishness, but like, you know, for me, like I was raised as an only child. And so it is actually really natural for me to only think about myself, because I didn’t have siblings, I didn’t have people to consider. And so I think I have to be even more mindful of, okay, I do need to set up boundaries, but I need to interrogate if I’m setting up a boundary because it’s the wise thing to do, or from using it as an excuse to preserve my own comforts. So I think that’s a really good question to have and to have people in your world that challenge you. If need be.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, it is good to have a friend or someone that you somebody talk to through.

Jackie Hill Perry
“Hey, should I yes to this?”

Jasmine Holmes
Yeah, it’s really important to have people that are close enough to you. And I think that leads us into another question like, how can we tell the difference between a healthy boundary and an unhealthy boundary? I think we almost just kind of answered it like, is it? Is it a boundary that’s helping us to prioritize what God asks us to prioritize? Or is it a boundary that’s helping us to prioritize our comfort?

Melissa Kruger
Mm hmm. Well, there you go. Yeah. That’s good.

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah, cuz I was talking to my therapist, like a month ago, and I was just telling her how I feel this pressure to be present and available to my friends in a way that I just, I just don’t have it to give. And she was like, but that’s okay. I was like this, okay. And she said, You have a lot going on. She said, you have three kids under six, you have a husband, you have this home that you’re trying to manage, you have this ministry, you’re and you’re pregnant, she was like, that’s all right, that you don’t have the energy or the capacity to give to people things that you’re already trying to manage and giving it to your family. I was like, Oh, you’re right. And so I didn’t, I didn’t see that the boundary was healthy. You know, um, because it was like, You’re gonna kill yourself, trying to be everything for everybody. And you can’t be Yeah, like, at the end of the day.

Yeah. Which I think we’ve like, established in Philippians 2, it’s about obedience to God. It’s not about you know, and I mean, if anybody’s going to be everything to everybody,

Melissa Kruger
And he wasn’t like, she went away, yes, spend time with God. And I think that’s for me the sign. I don’t know, if you all have signs that I’m over committed. I’ve said too many. Anxiety, yeses. I’ve said too many yeses that I shouldn’t have said, too, is if I’m not able to sit with the Lord, pray that if my time with him starts getting squeezed out. To me, that’s Red flag number one. And what I’m gonna start doing is I’m going to start ministering in my own strength. So it’s gonna get really bad.

Jackie Hill Perry
Last week’s word, hello.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, it can get really bad really fast.

Jasmine Holmes
And a lot of times, it’s just, and maybe not, you know, I may be way off base here. But I feel like in our evangelical context, a lot of times, women are powerless. But one way that we can really have power is to make ourselves indispensable in the lives of others. And oftentimes, I think that we find so much of our identity and being indispensable because it’s, that’s the power that we can attain interesting, that we just chase that high of like, oh, no, people need,

Melissa Kruger
They need me. They need me and I’m busy. Yeah,

Jasmine Holmes
I’m busy. Yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m busy. I’m just I, and people need me. And I, you know, and I just think I think that so often, that’s rewarded in women, in our context, to the point where when a woman is not conciliatory all the time, she feels shame. I know, like when I started, like, I do Q&A’s on my Instagram a lot. And people ask me questions that I don’t want to answer. Sometimes I just ignore them. But then if I’m getting it over and over and over again, then I’ll be like, I’m not going to answer this question. And somebody was like, how do you decide what question to answer what questions you don’t answer? And how do you decide what you will talk about and what you don’t want to talk about? And I said, I talked about the things that I want to talk about, and I don’t talk about things that I don’t want to talk about. There we go. And that’s how I decide Yeah, and so many people messaged me, and were like, Oh, my gosh, that’s so simple. How I can do that. I can do that. Like, I’m allowed to be like, I don’t want to I don’t want to talk about that. Yeah, actually, you know, and that’s like, on social media, right? That’s not in my, in my when I’m talking to my therapist, and I’m like, I don’t wanna talk about that. Okay, well, she’s gonna be like, alright, well, why are I’m talking to Phil, I’ve said that so many times, where we’ve had conversations because I just get really internal a lot of the time, and I’ll be like, I don’t want to talk about that and feels like okay, so probably that means we need to

Melissa Kruger
It’s okay to have some people who dig right into social media,

Jasmine Holmes
But everybody doesn’t need that. Everybody doesn’t need that privilege.

Melissa Kruger
Do you have any boundaries that you purposely set up in your life? I’m saying like, practical like getting really practical like I’ll only be out two nights during the week so I’m home with my family or even I mean, like one boundary is I go to church every Sunday. That’s a boundary on my life. I make it a priority to go to church.

Jasmine Holmes
Since everybody thinks that I am just this like, hard hearted boundary setter. I’ll give a sweet boundary that I have. It’s with myself At the end of the day, I am so exhausted, I don’t want to be touched. I don’t want to be looked at. But if my kids come into the bedroom at the end of the day, and they want snugs, they’re going to get them. That’s just something that I have like purpose because I’m like, You’re not always going to be little. Yeah, and you’re not. And maybe, maybe it’s only 10 minutes, you know, and then I’m like, Alright, guys, that’s enough. But, but I’m gonna, I’m not gonna say no, I’m gonna give it to at the end of the day, like, it’s even if we’ve already done it earlier in the day, it doesn’t matter at the end of the day, if they come in the room, and like six, my five year old be like, it’s time it’s time for snugs and my three year old, my two and a half year old, it’s like stacks, then then it’s like, okay, come on, let’s, let’s get these whether I whether I feel like it or not, because they’re not always going to be a little.

Jackie Hill Perry
I think for me, one is, because I’m self employed, your schedule is defined by you that which can be bad, because it means that like, all day, his work or whatever. And so I’ve just kind of made it so that after 3pm, I’m home, and I’m present, like I’m here. Another one, I think we’ve ministry in 2019. That was just nuts. I think I did about 76 events, which was not me keeping bound at all. So I’ve made it so that from here on out, I only do 15, which is a huge cut. So good. But I was like that that’s a boundary on my time on my family. And I just saw during the pandemic in particular, that my children missed me. They really missed me. And yeah, they need me more than the world does. So those are two. Yeah,

Melissa Kruger
That’s good. Do you have any social media boundaries you put on yourself? I just wondered, I wish I don’t.

Jackie Hill Perry
Not necessary. Well, as far as content, yes. Yeah. As far as. And one small one is really to guard myself and other people, which is, I noticed that the content creator kind of creates. Like, it’s it’s up to you how people interact with you, right? And so if people are already gassing you, why do we continue to make captions about ourselves? Yeah. Right. So like, I tried to be really intentional, of making captions that are other centered about my children about the Lord about the text about the because I just, I don’t want to create an environment where you come to my page just to simply learn about me. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so there’s just a boundary and how I speak. Yeah, that I think is important.

It’s good. They’re just things that I don’t talk about, that I won’t talk about. One of them is complementarianism. And just it’s not gonna I’m not gonna do it. Yeah. And so people,

Timothy, what do you think about it? Yeah.

Jasmine Holmes
People be like… “Oh, are you are you concentrating on egalitarianism?” I’ll be like, “Yeah”. Yes, just the big old smile.

Jackie Hill Perry
Like, that’s smart, though. You don’t feel you don’t feel the pressure to have to talk about all the things that people want to talk about. Yeah, that’s more.

Melissa Kruger
What about positive boundaries? One thing I, I was trying to do this year that I haven’t done as faithfully as I wanted to, was to take a day, every three months, to really be in prayer. And just to have time, you know, do you have any positive like, so that’s a boundary in some sense, is a proactive, I need time to process and set things before the Lord? Do you have any, like, proactive things that you try to put into your schedule, even if it’s like setting up a time to talk with your husband about budget, or, you know, like, the proactive boundaries that we all have to put in our lives so that we live the life we want to live, like, so what I’ll do at that time, I have a journal, and I wrote down some things I wanted to make sure to be doing, and I can check in on that, but that takes, it takes proactiveness it does. And I did it in March, and I was supposed to do it in June, I haven’t. But I want to do that better. Even if I get it twice a year, I’m gonna feel like that’s helpful.

Jackie Hill Perry
It’s in my brain. I just put it down. Because even before the pandemic, at the end of the year, me and Preston would sit down and talk about just kind of take a survey of all the things of our business, our money, our marriage, our sex life, our parenting and say, Okay, what are some things we need to tweak change, etc, etc. But I think the pandemic every, like a lot of the stuff we wrote down, just kind of went to crap. We haven’t like got back into, okay, we need to do it again. Even though there’s the possibility that all of our goals will be done away with because of a pandemic.

Jasmine Holmes
Yeah. Before the main debate, Philip and I were every night we were having at least an hour together. Wow. It’s yeah, we put the boys in their room and we would just sit together. Maybe we talk, maybe watch something, maybe we pay the boys dinner early and we eat dinner together. And then post pandemic. It was like, Dude, I’m seeing you all day every day. Like what was once precious is now a little bit slow. So we need to figure out like a different way to be together now that because he works from home now in his office is it’s still it’s above the garage, but he’s still at home. I work from home. So we’re like we’re all of us are all together all the time.

Jackie Hill Perry
So but that’s wise to just make a is a discipline. Yeah. Does that you know, we are going to do this. Let’s put it in our calendar. Say no to all the things that would keep us from doing it and do it. Like Nike. Just do it.

Jasmine Holmes
Yeah. Well, Phillip knows. Like, he goes out with his friends after eight. That’s good. That’s when the kids are down. Yeah. When the kids are down. I’m like, Okay. Kids are down. We’re good.

Jackie Hill Perry
That’s why he called Preston last night I after 8pm. It was probably just habit. Honestly. He knew I know, he legit. I looked at my phone. And it was 8:25. You know, I was going to bed.

Jasmine Holmes
He was like, all right. She’ll be sleeping.

Jackie Hill Perry
It was funny, because Preston turned over and he said, Could I could I go with Philip? I was like, Yeah, I don’t care. Now. I would care if the kids was right in driving me nuts. And I’m just sitting here like, you know,

Jasmine Holmes
Yeah. Yeah, but I’m tucked in and stuff. I’m like,

Jackie Hill Perry
I appreciate these. His boundary applied to my boundary. Yeah,

Jasmine Holmes
It’s good. It’s nice. I’m here for it.

Melissa Kruger
So what about boundaries with particular people

Jasmine Holmes
Whoa, like difficult people? Yes.

Melissa Kruger
Like, are there some people? Is it okay? To say, I can’t be in a relationship with certain people. Like, is it okay to have boundaries? Yeah. And by meaning. Let’s talk about what that might look like. Like there are some people? Because I know they tend to talk with other people that I’ve had to create some boundaries about what I share with them, because I’m not sure it’s safe. Right? Yeah. But are there some people that we probably shouldn’t be around altogether? Or is that? What do you think? It’s hard?

Jasmine Holmes
I think there’s a difference between just straight up cutting people off. And having boundaries with people. Yeah. And then letting their response be their response. Yeah. So what I mean by that is, Hey, Mom, I really appreciate that you have an opinion about my nursing my bottle feeding my sleep training, my co sleeping and my fill in the blank. But Fred and I have already decided what’s best for Little Timmy. You know, it’s it is very hard for me when you continue to push what you think is best. I know that you care. And I know that I’m not owed your support. But I would just like to not talk about that. Yes, anymore. Yeah. Sometimes mom, Ethel is going to say, Okay, I respect that boundary. And sometimes F is gonna throw a hissy fit. That’s all that’s all. I think it’s to decide because what I what what a boundary is not is me controlling the way that Ethel reacts to what I want. Yeah, I think it’s that boundary, too. Yeah, maybe her boundary is you’re not allowed to tell me what I can say and what I can’t say in which case, cool. So I guess what we’re talking. Right? But it doesn’t go straight into like, you’re off? I’m not talking to their higher education. Right, right. I’m tired of the way that you keep on telling me, you know, not to formula feed my baby. So I’m not going to talk to you anymore. That’s just throwing a fit. But there’s like that constant communication leading up to I think there should always be communication leading up to what that other person says to do. Because it says what does it say? Where’s that Romans 1218, if possible, so far as it depends on you live peaceably with all. This is me trying to live at peace with you. That’s right. If you don’t want to take the olive branch, then I can’t make you take it.

That’s right. And I think Scripture gives us Proverbs and Psalms in particular gives us a lot about you know, being friends with foolish people. Those who consistent sin Psalms one, you know, those who are scoffers. In the New Testament, it says don’t even associate with certain people who named the name of Christ which are just continuing in a certain lifestyle. So I think those are clear principles and boundaries that scripture has told us to set in place just to to really guard ourselves from their influence, and how they can be potentially a detriment to our own souls and spiritual life. And I think that’s okay. Yeah. But again, I think what Jasmine said is important is that communication is healthy, because it is hurtful. And there is like a lack of compassion to to distancing yourself or cutting people off and placing a boundary without ever saying, Hey, this is what’s about to happen and why right now, people like me, it’s easier for me to say that than to actually do it, because those conversations are awkward. And I would rather just disappear than tell you why. Because now I got to deal with the thing. And I got to live in this awkwardness. But if the love of Christ is gonna be ruling, then I got to lean into that. And I do like to ghost as hard for me to is way easier. Yeah, but it’s really hurtful. I was a small question. The I think I would like your thoughts, one that really fits with this conversation that’s not talked about enough, which is placing boundaries on certain friendships as a way to protect your marriage. Um, because I think that’s healthy. And I think it’s going to be necessary at some point where there are people that you just have to guard yourself, and even your spouse from because there are certain relationships that may they may have that they are in, just just to be in, but you’re seeing something they don’t see. Right. And so how do you place boundaries around your marriage, but also discern if it’s just you being unnecessarily jealous, right? Are you actually being a wise wife?

Third parties are great. I love a third party. My therapist name is Barb. Phillip, and I come to an impasse, we’re like “What does Barb think about this?” One time, Phillip is he’s, uh, he has ADHD. I think I’ve said that before. And he gets really easily distracted at work. And he’s met, he takes medication for his ADHD. So like, when he’s keyed in to work, he is keyed into work. And I would text him while he was at work. And he would not text me back. Like, I would text him like, towards the end of day and be like, hey, for dinner, I’m thinking X or Y, like, what do you what? You know, I’m started real quick, no text, or like, hey, you know, here’s a picture of what’s needed to you know, text. When the pandemic happened, he came home. I saw I went up to his office, which is outside walk upstairs and I looked at his computer, do you know this man had me on Do Not Disturb?

Melissa Kruger
It was his boundary.

Jasmine Holmes
That is not okay. And he was like, I think it’s fine. And I was like, I don’t think it is cuz I don’t really text you that much. And he was like, but you text me sometimes. Literally, he was like, I had a therapy appointment, like two days later. And he was like, whatever Barb says, that’s what we’ll do. Because I don’t think that I’m wrong. So you need to ask Barb and Barb is like, yeah, no, like, don’t put your wife on Do Not Disturb something might happen. She might need you there might be like an actual emergency. Like how many texts you sent you a day, like, you know, like one or two? Like, you know, and so he’s like, okay, okay, okay. And so now he doesn’t have no, not disturb. But like, we needed a third party cuz I was like, so super offended. Yeah. But also understand that he really does have a way that his brain works that may be needed that and so that was a conversation that we were able to have. So it wasn’t about a person, but it’s still we moved to the third party to kind of mediate whether or not I was being oversensitive. I probably was still a little bit. It could be both. Yeah. And so it really helped

Melissa Kruger
Were you thinking of like, maybe there seems to be a connection?

Jackie Hill Perry
Not even seems to be that there might be the potential for okay. So, for example, I’ve had it in my marriage. I’m not, I’m not one of those women that will police my husband from having from cutting off relationships with women that existed before me. Yeah. And that’s one I trust Preston to, you know, I have relationships with with men, and it’s like, their relationship, as long as the relationship is with both of us. There’s a level in which I’m open to it, right and as your boundary, but then I’ve, I’ve, there’s some relationships that try to pop up. And I’m like, Yeah, that’s that’s a conversation that’s just not about to happen. You know, we’re like a an Ex pops up and says, “Hey, I want to send Eden a gift for Christmas. Can I give you a call?” No. You can’t. So that’s what I say. That’s a hard boundary. Yeah, yeah. But I think there there are some times where a woman can either second guess herself, or she can be overreacting to every relationships that her husband has, especially if he works in the church and has to conversate and deal with other women and it’s nothing, but you’re going Yeah, yeah. now you discern all of that.

Melissa Kruger
I’ll say, I mean, there are certain boundaries that Shepherd elders can put up that I think can be harmful to women. Yeah, I struggle with it. I think they’re right boundaries. I totally understand it. If there’s someone in particular that you know, I don’t need to get closer to that person. Yeah, I think that is a complete right boundary. But I, the only thing I get a little hesitant about is when we make blanket boundaries with with gender, like clearly, all other women are off limits to my to sleep with. Some blanket boundaries. Don’t get me wrong, but I think we have to say, hey, what’s really healthy?

Jackie Hill Perry
You know if it’s your ex girlfriend that’s different, something behind this like it’s not just me being like, oh, obviously there was attraction before now. Now the straight up wisdom. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Melissa Kruger
Right. And if if there have been problems in the past with adultery and things, I think that’s a whole different game. I think there are different boundaries that get in place to rebuild trust, because trust has been taken. So hear me, I’m totally okay with that. But I just don’t want to create some boundaries that might separate people. We need each other. Yeah, there’s a rightness like I love actually that Mike. Some of his college friends are my friends. And I kind of like that he has female friends in the sense of, you know, it’s good for him to have. I shouldn’t be the only female he knows. I guess that’s what like knows his friends, right? Especially actually as pastor. Because if he thinks every woman’s like me, he’s gonna be really limited. You know? And yeah, and so. But that’s also we met in college. We had a big group of friends. Yeah, me. So you’re kind of used to that a little bit more? We

Jasmine Holmes
I have some friends here. Yeah. Yeah. They’ve been friends with Philip before. They’re friends with me. Exactly. And then they’ll text me. So they want to talk to Philip. And it’s about something to do with, like minister or something. But they’re texting me too. And you don’t have to do

Jackie Hill Perry
Yeah, I think noticing and watching how that friend engages with you. Yeah, is super important. Yes. Because if they always want the friend if they want the friendship to remain isolated, that’s a sign right. Yeah, there’s a boss is like now when we got here, like we’re one flesh. You’re my friend. No, like,

Jasmine Holmes
Hi. Yes. You need to be comfortable coming over to our house and being with both of us. Yeah, you need be comfortable if I walk into the room, and yeah, you know, but now, his friends from like college will come over and I walk through the office to say something to Phillip. And then I’ll just end up sitting down in the chair and talking to them on the phone. And he’s like, we were talking.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah. And I’ll say this. Mike even has boundaries from me. For instance, like one of my friends went in with a pastoral question to him. She told me about it years later, I didn’t know it was a situation she was dealing with it. She wanted wisdom on and she went to talk to him about it. And she realized I didn’t know about it, like a couple months. I don’t even know how she realized. And she said it actually meant so much that he hadn’t gone home and talk to me about it. So I think it’s actually right, especially in certain context. You know, we can have, we don’t have to tell everybody everything in our lives. Like it was right that he protected the question she was asking of him, but it was done in the total ministry context. Right context, right. I mean, that happens with pastors, you’re going to be sharing. This is something we haven’t talked about. And this kind of, is it gossip to tell your spouse everything?

Jackie Hill Perry
That’s the thing because I have people text me. “Can you not share this with Preston?” Yes. Yeah.

Is it okay if I tell Philip this? Yes. Cuz I think you’ll have insight but let me know.

Melissa Kruger
I think it’s fair to do that. Because when you tell somebody something like if I tell my husband, hey, X, Y, or Z about this person that she just told me, it’s gonna, he didn’t have the conversation with her, right? So it’s one thing if she’s okay with me sharing that, but it’s not okay. If she’s not, you know.

Jackie Hill Perry
Phillip will even tell me “Please don’t ask me” because if you asked me, I’m gonna want to tell you, and I’m like, okay,

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I think that’s good. Yeah. We don’t have to tell everybody everything.

Jasmine Holmes
Or he’ll be like, “Don’t guess”. Yeah, yeah, I’m not gonna be able to keep a straight face and your enemy. He’s like, let’s just like, yes. Just know that it happened. And can you be praying about it? And but I don’t want to tell you what, what exactly. He told me to be praying, you know, and I’m like, okay, okay, that makes sense.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, exactly. I think all of this what we can say, as we said, in our last are episode on false teaching. Do you think it takes discernment? And so I think it’s good to have boundaries, but it’s always good to review what they are. And if they’re for us accomplishing the mission, which God has given each of us to do, or if it’s for selfishness. Yep. And that’s how I think we can kind of start to discern those things. This is good. This is helpful.

Jasmine Holmes
Because boundaries are lovely, you guys, they’re beautiful. What else is beautiful is talking about our favorite things. This week’s question is, what’s your favorite gift you’ve ever been given ever and don’t be all like “salvation”.

Melissa Kruger
Okay, got a good maybe it’s my firstborn.

Jasmine Holmes
Yes, let’s not do that.

Melissa Kruger
We agree that that was our best game. The covenant of marriage. Yes, yeah.

Jackie Hill Perry
I’ve gotten a lot of good gifts. And I think it’s because people know that gifts are important to me and that my face will show if I like

Jasmine Holmes
Are all three of us gifts people? I think we are.

Melissa Kruger
Yes. Things. We like it. Yeah, we like things.

Jackie Hill Perry
Just not flowers. That’s probably I cannot because I don’t like gifts that aren’t useful. So it’s an aesthetic use. Yeah, but it’s good. But it does nothing for me. So like when I do ministry engagements, I appreciate it. People will send me flowers, but it’s just like, send me a Instacart Instacart gift card. Or like, like I can’t Yeah, toilet tissue. Yeah. And I’m like, Man, I got a house full of girls.

Jasmine Holmes
A Kroger gift card. That’s…yes.

Jackie Hill Perry
Yes. But I honestly I think one of the most memorable gifts is probably when I was 12. And my mother brought me she bought me a portable CD player, headphones, and like a Brandy and Monica CD. And that was like, not everybody had portable CD players. So it just I just remember and I love music. And so I just went around the house all day just listening to my own music. I love that. So that was a great you remember it? It was a great guy. She knew what I liked.

Jasmine Holmes
I got the same gift. But the CDs were Westlife. The British equivalent of Nsync?

Jackie Hill Perry
Oh, probably more tame?

Jasmine Holmes
I didn’t think so. But yeah, in hindsight, okay. You know, um, Melissa what’s your favorite gift?

Melissa Kruger
My favorite gift I actually got just a few years ago, for my birthday, Mike and my son John built a garden for me. So it’s like a raised garden with a fence around it, and a door that you go in. And I can plant all my stuff and make Mike designed it. And I mean, like, they built it from wood at Home Depot or wherever. And they put pebbles so that I can walk around it and all the stuff. It was really, like he knew I love gardening. And he felt it for me, meant a lot to me.

Jasmine Holmes
My entire 24th year I told everybody who would listen that I wanted a surprise party. And they were like, you can’t just ask for surprise party, you won’t be surprised. And I was like, I want a surprise party to figure it out. Who does that? Me. I like to ask for what I want, you know.

Melissa Kruger
I want Mike to know what I want. Just to know.

Jasmine Holmes
A sign of love, you know, to just like, know.

I was like, I want a surprise party. That’s what I want. And my mom was like, you can’t have a surprise party that’s not going to get I’m still living at home. She doesn’t even make sense. Like, you know, so, um, Philip and I started talking officially like, you know, officially dating or whatever, march 25. My birthday is April 7. And so we’ve been talking for a little bit. And he told me that he was going to be out of commission for you know, when you first start talking to somebody, and you’re, they’re gonna have their phone for two hours. And they’re like, this is where I’ll be for the two hours. So he’s like, Hey, I’m going to Kansas City to see my dad. I was like, okay, and we actually have a video where my mom walks into the house with Philip because he came to visit me. And it was our first time seeing each other. Since we had like, had our over the phone defining relationship conversation. Your girl was so awkward. I was just at the it’s such a funny video because I just didn’t want to look him in the eye. Because he’s just looking at me. And so I took him to my friend’s house to drop him off. And of course, and then he like kiss me on the forehead, which like, so then I was like, What’s my name? Like, I don’t even cuz like, I’m homeschooled, like forehead kisses, or like, I’m serious. So I was just like dazed and confused. So I like walking through walk through the back door, and I was like, he kissed me on my forehead. And then all my friends are like surprise, because they got me. They got and it was a surprise party. And I was I was surprised because Philip was there.

Melissa Kruger
He was there. So he scooted back and forth and came back. Oh, sweet. That’s pretty good. They surprised you.

Jasmine Holmes
Yeah, they did. It’s what I asked for. I like getting what I asked for. We see.

So we have an opportunity to talk about our sponsor for this season, which is Crossway. So many amazing books that we’ve been able to talk about read receive. And today the book that we’re talking about is cultural counterfeits confronting five empty promises of our age and how we were made for so much more by Jen Oschmann.

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I’m so excited about this. I you know, it’s funny, I met Jen, through a common friend, my friend lives in Prague, and they were missionary friends. She was like, You need to get to know my other friends. So I love getting to talk about this book a little bit. In this book, she really hits on different idols that are influencing us, particularly in our culture today, particularly women, right? Yes. particularly women, things that are that are coming at us, like our beauty, ability, sex, gender fluidity things that are all around us. And how, what are the idols behind that? And then how do we root our identity in Christ and live in that premium? I love it. Yeah. So that’s what she’s talking about.

Jasmine Holmes
How do we root for Jen? By purchasing this book.

Jackie Hill Perry
That’s ridiculous. We go to crossway.org/plus. And once you go there, you can find out how you can get 30% off because again, as I will say, throughout this series, the Saints love a good deal. All right. It was good to talk to y’all about boundaries. Join us next week.