Hopeful Living in a Weary World

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Collin Hansen
Are you experiencing hope fatigue? Are you worried by our culture of contempt? Are you exhausted by being in a continual state of outrage? If you answered yes, maybe that’s why you listen or watch the gospel bound podcast. You also might want to pick up the new book by Erwin ence, because he asks these three questions at the outset of his book, hope ain’t a hustle, persevering by faith in a winning World published by University Press. Erwin is the coordinator of missions in North America which is part of the Presbyterian Church in America or PCA. And previously, he was a pastor at Grace DC Presbyterian Church and he’s also the author of the beautiful community. He and his wife Kim have been married for 32 years, they’ve got four children, and two grandchildren. Christian hope seems unreasonable. Erwin writes in this book, because very often, we will not experience victory in this life. Christian hope informs his life by being a forward facing and upward gazing perspective, as our Great High Priest intercedes for us, and quote, indeed, Christian hope is countercultural in the world and even sometimes, in the church. Irwin says he wrote this book, in part because you want us to know that faithfulness to Christ is not the same thing as waging culture wars. At the same time, Christian hope doesn’t guarantee coasting above the storms of this life. When you reject the world or when rights the world often wants to eject, you love that line. So why do we endure because of Christ, of course, no one writes, quote, if the arc of the moral universe does indeed bend toward justice, that arc will never be smooth and straight from a human perspective. It will have twists and turns, ups and downs starts and stops. Our hope, if it is to be enduring must be rooted in the glory of Jesus Christ. Now Irwin also serves on the board and council the gospel coalition. So I’m delighted that he joins me now and gospel bound to discuss where we find hope, how we can hear the voice of the Lord, and why telling the truth about injustice is a friend to hope. Thanks, everyone, for joining me.

Irwyn Ince
Thank you, Colin, great to be with you today, brother.

Collin Hansen
Now, why did you need to write this book? Are you short on hope? Or do you have so much of it, that you can spare some for the rest of us

Irwyn Ince
Overflow abounding and hope it’s spilling out,

Collin Hansen
Knowing your personality, or when I can totally believe that?

Irwyn Ince
I had not considered that, as included in the reasoning really started following the publication of the beautiful community, which I put forward this expectation that the church should be striving to reflect its community and all of its diversity that the Holy Spirit empowers us for love of neighbor across lines of deep, deep difference. And I would get questions like, how do we hold out hope for that? I know we all have to hope for that in our current climate. And so that was really where I began to seriously say, Well, I really want to dive more deeply into to writing and thinking about hope. And I didn’t want to just write around hope for the beautiful community or hope for racial reconciliation or redemptive ethnic unity in in Jesus even though that is included, but what does it look like the world is, is always going to be a somewhat wearying place for us. And so what does it look like to persevere and hope in the midst of it? And so that’s kind of how it started. And the trajectory I wanted to take in writing.

Collin Hansen
It makes sense. Well, you you may be abounding and hope, but there are many people who definitely have lost it, if I’ve lost hope. And any number of the things that you’ve already mentioned, just the weariness of life or this broader vision of a beautiful community. What is the best thing or one that I could do to find that outcome?

Irwyn Ince
That, you know, that’s an important question. It’s an important question because everyone will experience challenges to our ability to hold on to hope and I’m talking about hope from the vantage point of the scriptures. Not hope as a wishful thinking or, or just a simple design. higher, but essentially for the kind of hope for Shalom for things to be as they ought to be, for there to be flourishing, and injustice and righteousness. And those things will always be under threat for us. And so we do, I think what the writer to the Hebrew does, and the first portion of that letter, it is, it’s amazing to me that he is going to in the, in the letter over and over again exhort them to persevere, and hope to, to hold on to their confidence all the way to the end to to endure. But he, he knows that they need it. But he starts the letter pointing them to the unrivaled glory and majesty of Jesus Christ, that that upward gaze as you, you read from the book, and in the beginning, they’re struggling in to persevere and hope. And it’s first thing. In these last days, God has spoken to us in his son. He’s the radiance of the glory of God, the exact representation of his nature. He upholds the universe by the Word of His power. That under you need to understand who your Savior is. You need to be firmly fixed. on him. There’s more I can see. But that’s the first like, that’s the first place you have to go. So let me I’ll pause there before.

Collin Hansen
Oh, the preacher gets going. I mean, this is a wonderful, it’s a wonderful study, anybody who wants to dive deep into the book of Hebrews, which is such a wonderful place to go, they’re gonna find a lot of help in this book, so many different topics. I love how how Hebrews covers so many different topics, but under the banner of of hope. Yeah, yeah. You have a lot of great preacher lines in this book, one of one of my favorite was when he said God has not been silent, but we are often deaf. Or when Where do you hear from God? Yeah.

Irwyn Ince
Boy. It is, it is very true. God is always speaking well, I hear from him most regularly, in His Word. And maybe that’s an obvious thing to say. But that’s where I have to turn so in His Word, in the community of faith, through other believers who are striving to live out this faith with me, right. And so it’s important to say, Well, I’m not talking about any extra biblical things. But I’m talking about the fact that the Lord will indeed encourage our hearts, as others come alongside us in times when we are challenged, to holding hold on to hope, and who will offer words of encouragement, who will offer corrective words for us, oftentimes, and so. So yes, in the pages of Scripture, in the community of faith through the preaching of the Word, literally, through through praise and worship. That is a really significant thing for me, to be reminded, reminding myself of the truth of the gospel, the promises of God that are given to us in song. And so all of those things for me, are sources of, of hearing God’s voice.

Collin Hansen
Well, I think you you already walked us into the next question, you write that the church’s worship is an indispensable part of Christian hope. Now, Erwin, I’d love for you to walk us through a service at your church and help us to know where you feel hope the most Oh, there. I’ll tell you what mine is after you go.

Irwyn Ince
Okay. Okay. I’ll, I will walk you through our liturgy. At Grace mosaic, where we worship in Washington, DC, where the service begins with a call to worship and in that call to worship from Scripture, we are reminded that the invitation into the presence of God into the worship of God is not one that simply comes from the mouth mouth of the pastor or the liturgies. But it is the invitation of God himself into to come into worship, and He’s inviting us in the name of Jesus, into worship. And from that call to worship, we start after that, in prayer. We go into Some songs of worship, some praise songs, following those praise and worship songs, we, we have our confession of, of sin and assurance of pardon. Where we are right after receiving this invitation we were reminded and praising the Lord, we were reminded of the, the truth of, of our, of our sinfulness and the, the beauty and blessing of God’s forgiveness in Christ. Following the assurance of pardon, we are invited, right, we always say, this is the piece we have we have with God, through Jesus Christ, and the piece, we get to extend to one another. And so then we have the passing of the piece in the in the congregation greeting again, talking, talking to folks, you know, come back from that with another worship song. And after that worship song, we have the confession of faith, we are weekly will recite the Nicene Creed, together as a church, reminding ourselves that we have a global and historic faith. This is the same faith experienced by brothers and sisters all over the world. We go from that to a period of announcements where we’ve got we have we say, we go from our global faith to our local faith, what’s going on in our community, and how is this church seeking to serve our neighbors here, and from that, we have the the blessing that we have the offering, where we give in accordance without God is given to us. We then have the prayer and the blessing of children which the whole congregation participates. And following that, we have the pastoral prayer are the prayers of the people, which will then lead into the sermon where the pastor will read his his text and preach the sermon. At the conclusion of the sermon, we move into the Lord’s Supper, following the Lord’s Supper, is our benediction, and dismissal after another praise and worship, so we’re in there to all of that. By the way.

I will tell you, Colin, it varies from week to week. It you know, I will say without question, when we come to the table. That is, it is a beautiful experience, to share communion with God’s people, every week to be reminded that Jesus is the host. And he has invited us to his table to participate as a foretaste of the wedding supper of the Lamb that that reminder every week, but I will say, for example, this past week, during the prayers of the people, one of our elders, was leading that segment of the worship service. And he was just kind of sharing some personal things that were weighing on his heart that some encouragement that he had received. In we have a we have a daily prayer project that we use as a church morning and evening prayers, that is according to the the Christian calendar. And, and and just in those that he wasn’t preaching a sermon, he was just kind of sharing how the Lord was encouraging his heart through the the shared devotional that we use as a church. And it just ministered to me. So even though the sermon was wonderful, I loved the software. I loved the praise and worship this past Sunday, that just stood out to me as a place of Oh, yes. Look, right as he spoke of how the Lord was ministering to his heart. The Lord was ministering to my heart, and giving me a sense of hope and assurance.

Collin Hansen
So there you go. I love that answer. Mine is not going to be nearly that good. I was just going to say that the practice in our church of walking forward to receive and partake in communion. Just seeing all these people who by standing and walking forward, are simultaneously confessing their need, yes, that they are sinners, they need redemption, but also pointing us to where Eretz found in the body and blood of Christ, and the receiving of that sacrifice for us to avail over our sins, so that then for eternal, eternal life, that just a simple bodily process, so I just love watching all of these people, it just fills me with joy and hope.

Irwyn Ince
Yeah, that’s really, that’s really good. That’s really good. Colin, we do the same thing. You know, I sit typically closer to the front, when I’m most of them, because I’m not involved in leading from the front. And so I’m, as I walk, I’m among the first. So I get to sit and see, all of the folks just got to precessing forward. And yeah, it is a joy.

Collin Hansen
That’s beautiful. Well, we’ve talked about the liturgy where you find that from week to week and the church. Tell me about someone, someone in your life who fills you with hope, especially as they point you to the hope that’s found in Christ. Yeah.

Irwyn Ince
There are plenty of people can speak to. But do you know who comes to first and foremost, in my mind, is my wife. And maybe it’s because I’m with her every day, is because of the close proximity and the way that I see her living out her faith. She is not just my wife, she’s also a professional counselor, and therapist. She’s also a part of the shepherdess team at our church are involved in leadership in the church as a servant she, she spends time comes alongside particularly women and younger women in the church, that that her giving heart and her committed devotion to Our Lord, that results in a in a commitment to me in a serving in a serving me. I just I am. I am amazed at the work of Christ in her life. How? Oh, I mean, we’ve been together 32 years, we would we dated for years before that. So we, we’ve known each other. Since you know, we were late teens. And it’s a lot of years to be able to see that trajectory. And and maybe, maybe it’s that as well, right? Because we’ve experienced that growth together. And I see, I’ve seen 30 plus years of commitment to faithfulness to Christ. And, and boy, it is easy for me to say yes. The Lord uses her example, as a, as a source of, of my own sense of hope. In Him and His work.

Collin Hansen
That’s one of the blessings of a marriage that lasts for long periods of time is because you don’t learn to put your hope in circumstances because the fact is you you have failed, your spouse has failed. You’ve come to the brink and different times you’ve gone through hard things together. Yeah, he’s experienced hard things individually and supported each other. You’ve seen it in your kids. Now you see it in your grandkids, there’s so many different things. But the but the striving together toward home, points you ultimately toward the source of that hope and you realize it’s not my circumstances. It’s not my feeling. It’s not always in in what I want to do, but ultimately what I’m called to do and when I’m bound to do, and that God empowers me to be able to do so beautiful thing. You mentioned in here, this was a really good point that, that if we read the Bible and we’re not offended, then we are not being honest. And we can look in the Bible all kinds of different places, whether it’s what Jesus teaches about sexual morality where he teaches about money, I mean, you can find plenty of different things to offend any of us if we’re actually reading it. I’m wondering are when do you think hope can be offensive in some places and times? Yes.

Irwyn Ince
I think hope, biblical hope most assuredly can be offensive. Because biblical hope it It calls me or demands of me a particular way of living a particular way of living, that is connected to the upside down nature of God’s kingdom. So, to live into, to hold fast as the writer of Hebrews says to our confidence, in our boasting, in our hope, right to, to hold on to that means, oh, I am going to avail myself of the means of grace in this life, I am going to meet avail myself of confession, and repentance, and forgiveness, I am not going to be one who strive to seek after vengeance, I’m not going to be one who just wants to accumulate more and more power to dominate in this life. I’m willing and willing to have, have it look like I’ve lost. Right? In this world. Because I again, in Christ, it’s, it’s like, okay, the, in Hebrews chapter 10, when their pastor says to them, he says, recall, the former days, when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard trial with sufferings. They had affiliated themselves with those who had been imprisoned for the faith, and then became identified as people who should be persecuted, because they went to care for their brothers and sisters in prison. And then he says, you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, because you knew you had a better and more lasting possession, this offensive, I said, Wait a second. What do you mean, I should joyfully accept the plundering of my property by the authorities? Because I know because we know we have a better possession and abiding possession in Christ. Yeah, that’s offensive. That’s No, no, no, don’t joyfully accept that you better go get your stuff that you go fight. Right.

Collin Hansen
Oh, no. Well, I mean, what did what did the experience of working through this book? Again, talking with Irwin ends here about hope and a hustle? just immersing yourself in Hebrews in the book of Hebrews? What did that do for you? Was that a? Was that a book that you already knew a lot about? Was it one that your eyes open to certain things? Tell us a little bit about what that was like?

Irwyn Ince
Sure. Well, I will say that. Most days, Hebrews is my favorite book of the Bible. And so yes, so so when I wanted to lean into this topic, you know, I had the thought, well, do I want to do a trajectory of hope from you know, the, from Genesis to Revelation and God’s call to I do I want to do that or just situate myself here. And it was a it was challenging, life giving, fun, convicting, joyful, I mean, affirming of the faith, because there is such a, you get the sense of the deep and abiding love that the writer who I just call the pastor has, for these people, I mean, he wants them to persevere, right? He gives them these warnings, about drifting away. But every time he gives them a warning, he does that about six times in the letter. He says something like, but we are, we are sure of better things. In your case, beloved, we, you know, I want to I gotta warn you, I got a one year going, you’re going into a dangerous direction. But we don’t think that’s where you’re going to end up we are confident, we’re confident that the spirit is is in you, and that will lead you and so, boy, it was it really, here’s the thing as scholars much who are much more scholarly and knowledgeable than I am, but the the high priestly ministry of Jesus Christ, the power of Jesus’s ministry, at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty Hi, how he does he says that six times in the letter, he’s taken a seat at the right hand of the throne of God. He’s it seated at the right end of the Majesty on an old repeat over and over again. Jesus is alive, and he’s active. He’s interceding hit, that’s you want to know what the source of your hope is? There you go. There you go.

Collin Hansen
One who perfectly embody the upside down nature of the kingdom, who did not lose hope, even as his body was wasting away on the cross, even as he cried out, for his father, even as he asked to be delivered from it still holding on to that hope that you mentioned a couple more questions here with everyone is talking about hope ain’t a hustle, persevering by faith in a worrying world. He recounts some tragic cases of injustice in American history, especially related to race, including within the church. This is an area of significant importance for many reasons. I teach on this regularly here at BC Divinity School and in my community and in my church. But I thought it was so interesting how you connect the telling and teaching of that history to hope. How does that work? How does telling this difficult, painful history contribute to finding hope today? Because I would think that on both sides, that’s counterintuitive, because I hear from one side, why are you teaching all this negativity? You know, like, what, why, I mean, move on from that. And then I hear from the other side. See, that’s why we shouldn’t trust in anything today. That’s why we should give up hope. So how do you link telling the truth about injustice? With finding hope today?

Irwyn Ince
Yes. Thank you for this this question. Part of the reason I include this, those stories, is, well, what was driving their pursuit of justice? What was driving their desire to push back against racial injustice and segregation and oppression? It was not necessarily that they expected to experience the fullness of a freedom and justice in this world, but they, they had a hope in a God of justice. Because we know who the Lord is, because we know that righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne, because we know that, that God is against oppression. We will speak out, and we will act in in the pursuit of justice in a way that is not in a way that is not have as a goal or a means violence and oppression as the way out. Amen. Yeah. We are seeking actually, we’re seeking brotherhood. We’re we’re seeking reconciliation. And that’s informative to us. Because for us today, because, listen, whether it’s whether it’s ongoing issues of race and class, there are realities of injustice in our society. They are both individual level and then they are still structural realities. And God’s people are called to to ask those questions. Where is that injustice? And what does? What do people who hope in the risen Christ, how do they live and respond to the injustice in this world in life? Right, and I try to try to win. And put some people on top and others on the bottom. Yeah.

Collin Hansen
Not just reverse, necessarily oppression.

Irwyn Ince
That’s right. That’s right. We’re after we’re after literally using biblical language, we’re after love,

Collin Hansen
Love of their neighbors love of their oppressors believing that they’re they’re very enemies were held in bondage by their sin and wanting to liberate them from their sin. That is a that is up. Again, an offensive act of hope. Yes, to a world that doesn’t believe that’s possible. That’s right. And it was even offensive at that time in multiple directions. That’s one of the reasons why I love to teach that era of history is because it’s so much more complicated, so much more fraught, so much more contingent and the work of The Lord is so much more miraculous than we recognize it to be. Last question here with Irwins, talking about hope and a hustle, I think are one of the one of the main reasons we lack hope is because we trust and what we see. That’s very clear in Hebrews right? The sin is as old as the garden itself. Just to conclude us here, what disciplines give you the spiritual sight, that results in hope?

Irwyn Ince
I have to remind myself daily, daily, that that sin and evil and death do not have the final word. A God has the final word. Because what I see, what I see, is the seeming triumph of death in this world, and in a manifold number of ways.

Collin Hansen
Relentless.

Irwyn Ince
And so the, the discipline of, of prayer, the discipline of, of, even when I’m, well, maybe, especially when I’m struggling, to things of not distancing myself from God’s Word. And not distancing myself from God’s people. The good, you talked, you talked about, right? The, the the joy that comes from seeing people process to receive the Lord’s Supper, that this is why he says, Don’t neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some.

Collin Hansen
Another great passage from Hebrews, right?

Irwyn Ince
The struggle makes you think I’m isolated, and I want to, I gotta get I just got to get away from this. These, you know, this is fanciful, this is not real reality, I got to deal in reality, then I have to be reminded through my participation in the body, that actually even that is a supernatural thing. That God has done what we could not do. I am in fellowship with people who I would have nothing to do with whether or not for Jesus Christ.

Collin Hansen
And have nothing to do with us.

Irwyn Ince
Exactly right. That is exactly right. Yes. You know, those reminders, how the writer to the Hebrews has to tell them they’re being tempted to solve their struggle, in hope by going back under the rules and regulations of the Old Covenant, particularly of the temple and sacrifices. And he says, Don’t you understand? That’s the shadow, the reality has come? Why are you trying to go back to the shadow? Right? You can’t, you can’t see the reality Jesus entered into the heavenly Holy of Holies. Right, not with the blood of, of bulls and goats, but with his own blood to to secure an eternal salvation. And that’s, that’s more real than the temple you see with your eyes is this reminder of what is truly real. Right? The that, that we are not believing a fantasy when we talk about when we talk about heaven and the things we cannot see.

Collin Hansen
A man again, what an encouragement, the book, hope and a hustle, persevering by faith and wearing world. Of course, an exploration of the book of Hebrews. And Irwins has been my guest and Erwinia, a good friend to me, the Gospel coalition and no doubt to readers through this book. Thanks for joining me.

Irwyn Ince
My pleasure, Colin. It is so good to be with you.