The Case for In-Person Church

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Afshin Ziafat
Well, it’s so good to be here with my brothers, Miguel and George and you brothers have been pastoring longer than I have been pastoring, you’ve been pastoring for about 30 years. And now you’re in Memphis as a pastor, and you’re in Santa Domingo pastoring for over 25 years. So So the topic before us today is just as pastors think about what is our role? And how do we engage those who have maybe neglected the gathering of the church or have not come back, be it because of the pandemic? Obviously, there’s places in America where the pandemic is still more of an issue than, than other places. But nonetheless, it may have started with the pandemic, with people just saying, Oh, it’s, is the gathering even really that important? And so be it that or the just the whole inertia of the church movement? There are people who are not valuing the gathering as much. And so what is our role as pastors? And how should we engage those folks? So I’ll start with you, George, what would be your thoughts?

George Robertson
Well, I think the first thing we had to do was to look at ourselves. And I had to, I had to lead that by looking at myself, instead of asking if we were sort of spoiled in the south, where you had this cultural pressure to be at church. You don’t have anybody catching you out before noon, on a Sunday, because you’re supposed to be at church, even if you hit at home, you had to be at the pandemic, with the live stream phenomenon gave people permission to say, I went to church at home. So I had to, I had to first ask myself, it took me a while to get to this point. My first reaction was, you folks need to be back in church. Then I had to realize why. What is it about my ministry? What Where did I miss in spiritual formation in discipleship of my people, that it wouldn’t be such a quick instinct for everyone to return to corporate worship. So that was, that was a good exercise, and then to lead my people through that, too, which has, has moved us back to thinking virtually as a church plant, or as a Mission Church, in an unreached area, almost, and say I, I’ve got to present a compelling reason. First, to come to Christ, and then to come with others and worship. And here are the benefits of corporate worship. There’s something that happens here that I can’t tell you, but it’s like eating your vegetables, something happens inside of you, you know, there’s a good effect, even if you can’t account for it, like a physician could just get here things. And then additionally, is maybe more of a future answer. But to think, Wait, how did the what compelled the early church to come together, de risked their lives to come together? And to make and to be an attractive fellowship to other people? Where it was, it was a no brainer, I gotta be there. Right. And so trying to go back and and ask those, what are the characteristics of that first century church that made it so compelling, and it’s really reshaped our almost our total approach to ministry?

Afshin Ziafat
Yeah, that just put in my mind, I’ve been in places in the Middle East, where, literally, it’s a house church, and they at the end of the service time, they leave to at a time, because they don’t want to create this spectacle that everyone sees, oh, there’s a church meeting in there. And so the fact that they’re risking that was very impactful for me that they’re really risking their lives to come together. So. So Miguel, how about you, brother?

Miguel Nunez
I like the first part of the answer to this question that George just gave? I think we always need to start by looking at ourselves, whether that is a church or a person that starts with us. On the other hand, I think this is an answer with multiple layers. We have always thought that the church is a work of God. So bringing them back will be a work of guide as well. So I think there are a lot of things that we could think of, for example, we could pray and to the Lord of the harvest, because they’ll deliver the harvest at the same Lord, that was in control of our church when these people were there and now when they are not there. So we should be asking the Lord to you They give them repentance if that’s what is require, or understanding what the purpose of the churches and what the church is really is, which is not activities is not it is not a place is a group of people with God become real issues. It’s an encounter with God when you come together. So that’s one aspect. The second thing, I think the pulpit could be a good thing. My first series right after the pandemic began, was called come back to me, not to the church to me, because if you come back to the Lord, you will come back to a church, if you really do. So now, he’s not come back to us so that we could benefit from you. He’s come back to the Lord. And that requires repentance, because back to looking inside of you. And, and that worked well. Because I think a lot of people were thinking we need to go back to normal. But the normal was part of the problem. Quite frequently, the normal was the problem. That’s why when the pandemic came, that’s why it happened so quickly. Because that normal was abnormal. He was just like, church as usual. And that’s not going to keep people in. And then from the pulpit. We say this time and again, even in prayer, when I’m about to preach, Lord, we pray that will give us an encounter with God through Your Word. So people start thinking, Okay, this is what it’s what I’m here for. I’m not here just to hear a message, I’m here to encounter God in a way that normally doesn’t happen when I am by myself. And the instrumental that is the preaching of the Word. So is that sensation, we also we ask people, you know, do you know so and so he hasn’t been in church in whatever number of weeks, can you call him, rather than the pastor’s because then he or she can talk to you on a one to one level as equal, let him share his or her heart. And then you could encourage him and say, whatever, then after that, come back and tell us and then maybe we will make a phone call, make an appointment. But we try. We didn’t want people to feel that we were putting pressure on them, like, Please come back. Because I will say help them either. In some ways, sometimes you’re feeding into their sinful patterns, but other times you feed it into a maturity. So no, you are the one that needs to understand that you need this. And we are here to receive you again, embrace you, and receive you and share with you one more time. So I think there are different things at different levels. But I liked what you said also, George, I think you begin by reviewing yourself as a person, but also as a church, where you were what you did what you did not do that created this environment where people just leaped so quickly.

Afshin Ziafat
Yeah, first of all, thank you, brother, I love that you went back to the the foundational thing of this is the Lord’s work, the Lord has to draw their hearts back just as he drove through their heart the first time and reminds me of you know, Unless the Lord builds the house, we labor in vain. It means that this is God’s church, not not my church to remember that and it appealed to him. But for me, yeah, I think that I agree with putting the pressure as being not the right way about it, because I don’t want to guilt trip somebody into into coming to church. I don’t think that’s the greatest route of motivation, I think, rather to really paint the picture of the beauty of the gathering to preach a robust ecclesiology of so that’s more about look what you’re missing, you know, and look what sure what other people are missing by you’re not being there. But look what you’re missing by not being a part of the gathered Body of Christ. And so I think Ephesians chapter four, where Paul says, that get when Christ ascended, He gave gifts, spiritual gifts to the members of the church, and then he assigned pastors. And this is what he called them to do to equip the saints for the work of the ministry for the building up of the Body of Christ. And so, I look and then it goes on to say, when every part of the body is properly working, the whole body grows together in love. And so for me, I think it’s, it’s, you can’t grow truly in isolation, you know, and so to encourage them that it’s, it’s when you are using your gifts employing your gifts in the local body, then the whole church together grows, it’s like a tide going up and all the ships rising with it. You can’t grow outside so I want them to see II, the value, I want them to see the value of gathering as a body, instead of just saying, Do not neglect the gathering, as Hebrews 10 tells us, but didn’t tell him why, because this is what we do when we gather. So, yeah, I think I think it’s like the height of a consumer mentality to think I’m just going to stay at home and watch a live stream. And it’s the same thing, because then that’s kind of revealing that I think church is just about what I’m getting out of it. You know, and sometimes it’s not even about the singing and worship, it’s literally just about I just want to hear, it’s like a podcast, I just want to hear the message. And that’s going to church. And so we need to teach our people that no, we’re not to have a consumer mentality, but rather to have a mentality of man, I am needed there. I have a gift. I’m a part of a body and the body doesn’t grow without me being there. Yeah. What about live stream? Do you guys live stream your church services? And some people might say that that’s not a good thing? Because it’s encouraging people to stay home. We do live streaming, I can share why but what are your what do y’all think about that? Yeah,

George Robertson
we did two. We still live stream there is. But we are coming now to the question of, of what will we encourage in terms of membership of what does it look like? When you commit to be a member of the church? What are we asking them to do? Or have existing members? And I’ve never faced this question before, can I be a live stream member? I mean, that’s, that’s some of the, you know, we are what I mean, one thing that’s this, this the, it’s called us to do in response to the pandemic. One of the ways we had to repent is to repent of the way we were not shepherding. Our shepherding mostly consisted of attending to those people who showed up. And then even more intentionally showed up at Sunday school or discipleship event, rather than going into the highways and byways, going after the one outside of the 90 and nine. So, We’ve reorganized, reorganize our church reorganize our elders and deacons to focus on geographical parts of the city. And it’s been responsible for reaching Well, it’s caused us to have to get to know every one of these people. So out of that, shepherding and personally contacting personally reaching out to, to members we have we have some shut ins for whom live stream as a lifeline. We have, then you have others who are not members are not Christians. And that’s a It’s an outrage. But we have some who are perfectly ambulatory members who have said, I’d like to remain a member of the church, but I want to be an online member. I don’t plan ever to come back now because I’m mad at the church with this, Hey, you know how convenient This is? To go to bedside Baptist, you know, even just a Presbyterian Church. And so we’re not immediately reacting to that, to say, You can’t do that. But yeah, but rather, how do we shepherd them? And the way that looks right now, is for Pastor elder to say, Hey, let me make the case. To you for how much blessing there is, when you’re in person. Here’s the the impact it’s made on me. And it’s, it’s an essential, it’s a I mean, it’s a central part of our faith, isn’t it that Jesus became flesh and moved into our neighborhood and tabernacled among us, so that he could save us ultimately, but also so that we would know God is near and we’ve seen some good results of that. Eventually. I’m sure there’ll be some hard conversations or with people coming up, say hi. I mean, I have had we’ve had about a half dozen people from around the country who said, I’d like to be a member of your church. I live in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, but Well, we love that you’re connected to us. But this this Christianity thing is incarnational. Jesus has drawn near to you and he’s given you a family. And this embodied gathering Heat is a really powerful antidote to the epidemic of isolation that’s afflicting the world.

Afshin Ziafat
Yeah. And then I think of there’s some churches that are like, have a Metaverse location or an online location for their many locations of their church. And I’m like, No, you can’t even live out the one another’s of Scripture, you know, how do you how do you how are you patient with one another, and kind of one another and bear one another’s burdens. If you’re in isolation, we

Miguel Nunez
do a live stream. Yes, we’ve done it for years. In fact, when the pandemic began, churches close, even on Wednesday night, we continue Bible studies online. And for the first few weeks, we had between six and 800, people online Bible study, so people, people eat, we’re eager to learn to grow. And I think that’s one aspect that churches need to, to pay close attention to, when we teach the word, not only from the pulpit, but at every level, let’s make sure that we are teaching in a way they’re forcing the people to grow. Because the best encouragement for you to keep going anyplace, is the is the growth that you see, if you go to a gym, and then you see your muscles developing, and then you becoming thinner, and you look at yourself in the mirror, people continue to go there because they are achieving a goal. And I think the even for me, my best motivation to continue to grow. Rather, to continue to study, the word to continue to look for Christ is when I see myself growing, in whatever maybe in the gift of the Spirit, maybe in my capacity to shepherd people, maybe my level of empathy, maybe my level of unconditional love. I just love to see myself growing in the image of Christ. And I think that is probably natural, or something that God gives us the to see yourself growing, and then be encouraged to continue. But if I stagnate, then it becomes it becomes boring. It’s imagine that you go to the gym, and then you’re not losing any power, you know, developing any strength. Soon, you’re going to stop going. So I think we need to look at how we preach what we preach how we teach. And the pastors, all of us need to say Am I growing, because if I am growing more than likely my church is growing. Because you just pull in the map to the next level on to the next level. Yeah, and I tell our church all the time, I want to be a better husband, a better friend, a better counselor, better preacher, better doctor, a better council member, it better anything. Because I know, I’m not we’re crisis. So I know that I have a lot of room to grow. And that encourages me quite a bit. So but I do live stream and those of us who are in Latin America will see. Or have seen already, that many churches with bad theology close, and then looking for something they bump into. Either our church or somebody else’s, but good teaching. And town, some people have left us churches, new churches have been planted. And some have been weakened with bad theology. So live streaming, I think has is purpose. Now I’m sure he has been badly used to, but he’s does everything in life.

Afshin Ziafat
Right. That’s what I agree. Like, that’s not a reason. The solution shouldn’t be if people are abusing it to remove live stream, but to rather teach them as you mentioned, and encourage them the value of the gathered body. And yeah, it’s it’s good for us. One people who are sick, obviously, who are disabled who can’t make it. People who are traveling that want to stay connected, you know, or even, you know, we have missionaries that we’ve sent out, and they tune in, they’re involved in the church in their foreign country that they’re in, but they’re also tuned in just to stay connected with with the sending church. So I think it does have a place and even though it’s abused, we shouldn’t just remove it, but we should encourage them of the value. Yeah. So um,

George Robertson
may I mention something else? Yeah, that we’ve seen that I think it enables us also to turn the church inside out to the unreached. Since more and more people are not accustomed to going to church. That’s, that’s really intimidating to think about going What are they doing there? When they get in there and they close the doors? Are they going to open Snakes are there going to live up to what is what’s going to happen to me. So you can room at that, remove that barrier, and show them. And I try to emphasize that on the way we, we approach videos or whatever we put on the work. We’re turning it inside out to help it feel safer to the unchurched in our context in Memphis, where we are intentionally pursuing diversity, as a realization of the mystery of the gospel, as Paul says, breaking down these ethnic barriers reflecting the complexion of heaven, Revelation seven, nine, and so forth, it’s proven to be a really powerful tool, we have a, we have a kind of a cheap broadcast on on TV too, we can turn it because some people are just only watching TV, we intentionally make sure they’re a diverse. There’s diversity on the platform, diversity of leadership, music, and preaching and worship leading. And that really has been probably one of the most effective means of pursuing multi ethnicity is by projecting not only are you welcome here, you’re wanted here, there’s somebody representing what you look like here in a majority white subculture, even though it’s a majority, minority city. So it’s a that’s another benefit, not just serving our own people, but it can be a way of turning the church inside out.

Afshin Ziafat
And like you were saying to we’ve had a lot of people come to our church, because they started watching online, and they started, like you said, it brought down those barriers of what’s it gonna, what’s gonna happen when I show up, but also what are they teaching. And they could have done that before by going online, but much more it pressed it on them with the live stream. So yeah, I think you guys are hitting something incredibly important. I love what you were saying about how our culture is going towards isolationism. But it’s interesting when you look at like some of the, even some of the famous TV shows in our culture, like in the 80s, it was cheers, you know, you want everyone, sometimes you want to go where everyone knows your Neda, you know, like, it was the bar, it was like four chairs, go in there where everyone knows your name, where you’re known, and you know others, right. And then fast forward to the 90s friends and moved from the bar to the coffee shop, then it was like a place where you could come gather you knew, you know, and then maybe you could say the office, you know, in the 2000s. But it’s like the culture somehow knows that. There’s something missing in isolationism that we are made for one another. But you’re right, like we have the most beautiful community where you have people from different backgrounds, as Scripture teaches like different nations, every tribe, tongue and nation different different socio economic statuses, you know, all coming together, and uniting under the banner of Christ as one. And the scripture says in Ephesians, three, it is the manifold wisdom of God when that happens, and even the the rulers and the principalities, look at it and wonder. And so I think there’s something beautiful that that is being missed. If you are not at in the local gathering of the body. Can

Miguel Nunez
I add something else? I said at the beginning, the answer to this question is like multi layers. So that’s what we have been doing a given different, not opinions, but answers to the same problem. So he’s another one, at least the way we do our church. We want to make sure that each member understand that the primary responsibility for their growth is on them. Not on us. And I think that’s important, because especially in this age, where everyone would like to blame somebody. White, something in me is not happening. That’s

George Robertson
not just an American problem now is

Miguel Nunez
not an American problem is a human race problem. That is true even even raising kids, the primary responsibility for them to remain clean and is is on them. Now. I need to do something to help them. The bride do something to help him. He helps me a great deal because I’m a physician and I compare members in the church with patients and doctors. If he is sick, you call me and you tell me that you’re sick. Now, if you call, I never answered the phone call, then you do get a point. Now if you try to make an appointment and the secretary says there are no appointments for the next six months, then you get to a point. But if you don’t call it How do I know you’re sick? Right? How do I know that you you’re going through a difficult time and we go through these numbers before saying anything else so on so if we hurt you, if we whatever offended you, please forgive us. But besides that, let me ask you a couple of questions. Do you call any of our passage? The UK, we have counselors to who are now passing? Do you call annual our counselors? We have a lot of small groups, do you belong to one of the small groups? Quite frankly, the answer has been one of them. Now, whether you’re surprising when you have a large church, and then you don’t belong to any small community, how do we know you closely when you come to church with 2000 people this almost like impossible. So we encourage people to be part of one of our small groups, and they are all over this city. So their friends in those small communities, they notice their absence a lot quicker than we do. And they call them in before they notice various, and they tried to get them in again, before we even know. And then after they have tried, the leaders have tried or even members of the group, then they say pasa you know, we call so and so he’s still not calming, or she’s not common. We don’t know what’s going on. And then sometimes we say, could you ask her if they will, like, visit a passionate visit, or an interview to get them?

Afshin Ziafat
And I think I think you know, you we’ve all probably heard of someone who’s left our church. And sadly, we didn’t notice they’ve been gone for a year, let’s say and then they maybe said, Hey, I haven’t been coming for a year and nobody even called me. Nobody viewed me chat. Now, a lot of times, they weren’t really plugged in, and like you said to one of our small groups, or else that would have taken place. But I do think that even though we might feel like it’s picking up the phone and calling someone and say, hey, where have you been? We haven’t seen you, it seems like, like that’s a uncomfortable conversation. It’s actually a loving one. Because it makes them feel loved, like, oh, they I missed if I’m not there. If we don’t hear from us at all. And we think we’re loving them. By doing that. It actually is saying we don’t care about you, you know what I mean? And so let me ask you all this question, when is it appropriate? And how do you make that phone call? And then you mentioned about membership? Because I know some people ask, Well, what about if they’re not a member? And they’re just regularly attending? And they they stopped showing up? For me? I’m like, Well, the question isn’t, hey, you need to show up. The question is, why don’t you remember? Like, I want to, I want to get them to see the value of becoming a member of the church, you know, but nonetheless, I guess I’m gonna answer my question in this way, too, to say, I think we have to ask questions before we, you know, before we just say, hey, you’ve been gone. And yeah, you’re sending, like, first ask questions, I think is, but I want to hear from you. How do you do that conversation? And when is it appropriate to have that conversation? We

George Robertson
had to, like I said, we had to back up and say, look at ourselves, where do we as shepherds? If if, if Jesus says if the Epistles say, you’re called to be shepherds of the flock, and Jesus has demonstrated that, that that involves going, he tells it tells us not just to go and compel unbelievers. He tells us by his example, that he keeps going after his, his, his own people. So we had really become too comfortable, waiting, receiving. And waiting for there’s a problem receiving, waiting until somebody didn’t show up, instead of going so the we had to organize ourselves as I said, we organize ourselves into parishes or Presbyterians in the past have called them districts. And when I was explaining it to our people, I said, you know, we’re going to, we’re going to make it harder for you to be missed. Overlooked I mean, and I joke with the congregation and say, You will never get away now. Because you could, you know, you could hide in your neighborhood, but now we’re drawing lines around every section of this city, and we’re going to have elders and deacons. And if you go missing from church, then you know, we’re going to be in a neighborhood near you. We’re gonna find you that none of the scary with it one of my assistant says what we’re really making is a very sticky web. Hmm, sticky web of relationships, relationships with elders and deacons. Which, you know, when you put that expectation up there, you got, you got accountability on your elders and deacons, Oh, they got to follow through with what we’re doing. And then the pastor’s are related to those various parishes. And that organization. And I’m not saying this is the only way to do it. But by organizing a shepherding movement, through small groups, or Sunday schools or whatever, you build the expectation, you’re going to be called at and you’re going to be pursued, even when you’re here, that has increased the stickiness of our relationships, and it’s helped us to, it’s helped us to identify very specifically, the ones who are not returning as a choice, either because they’re upset with something, or they’re, or they’ve just quit growing. And as we then ask questions, which is not isolating them, because we’ve been calling them like everybody else all the time. But we can say now in the conversation, hey, it’s their reason, we haven’t seen you. And yet, we’ve been talking to you. But I’ve been really looking forward to seeing you at Bible study or church or worship. And we’re noticing that it’s not like these had it as part of their discipleship, that worship on the Lord’s Day was a priority, then COVID came, and then they just never got around to it again. those for whom it was a practice and a part of their discipleship beforehand, returned to it. Yeah. And it even if they haven’t, it’s just a slight nudge. But these were folks who were sliding, slipping drifting in their discipleship already. And it’s likely that because they went into COVID, not being very well formed spiritually COVID took up a bigger toll on them than it would have otherwise. And we’re usually finding there’s, there are now bigger spiritual problems and get relational problems they’ve had to run because of depression or with their kids. I mean, church going people have that too. But it it’s in a way, I guess, the way to flip it is, instead of looking so much at the way we were doing is, oh, my goodness, these people are not coming back. We’re saying, Ah, here is the one sheep that the Lord said, Leave these 99 and go after that one. And that one has, is likely going to have a broken leg. They’ve got some get some real they need some intense spiritual

Afshin Ziafat
discipleship, what you’re saying is hitting me of just we back to it starts with us. Maybe what that is revealing when so many of them have left as we were just calling him to just a shallow, come on Sunday, and just check a box type of a thing. But what you brothers have both said that really maybe what we need to do is not just call them back to the Sunday morning gathering, but we really need to call them back to real community, real authentic community. That’s what they need. They didn’t have that even before COVID, let’s say, but they need a place where they are truly known, again, back to the cheers analogy or whatever. It was a smaller group that if one of them was missing, you would you could tell right? And so I think at first John chapter one, where John says, if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another. And the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin, but what kind of fellowship? It’s not just a, I show up every once in a while, and no one knows me. Why? Because the very next verse, he says, If we say we do not sin, we lie and the truth is not in us. So it’s the kind of fellowship where you’re confessing your sin. Someone knows you knows your struggle knows your anxieties, you know, there’s, and that’s what people really actually need. And so I think in our call back to the church, or maybe, as you said, really back to Jesus, we want to call him back to the light of authentic community, not just calling him back to show up on Sundays. You know what I mean?

Miguel Nunez
I think that is important, because the calling is not to activities and the church is really first to the Lord, and then to the people of God, as we come together and minister to one another. I think you know, medicine, again, we have medications and we have vaccines. Medications are for people who are sick. But we always say the best medications for any illness is preventive medicine. So if you teach your members of your people before they become members, and you continue to do that, the the understanding why or what the churches to what the responsibilities of members are, we take an hour of the 1012 hour class for membership, take an hour to tell them that you have a responsibility as a member and I think

Afshin Ziafat
you have to constantly remind your members absolutely this is the this is what you’ve committed to. Sure,

Miguel Nunez
absolutely, definitely. And it’s not just your your contribution financially to the church and and it’s a lot more than that. And a lot more than that. We say for example, the the holiness of the church is your responsibility, not only because the way you live, but the discipline, even church discipline that begins one to one, if you brother saying you go, you’re gonna go and tell the pastor, you go, you come from that person, and he doesn’t listen to you take two or three doesn’t say to take two or three pastors, you take two or three on and you confront him, then you’re gonna go to the church, but that’s way before it gets to us. That’s the irresponsibility, you mentioned also gifts and talents, and then whatever God has given to you understanding of administration abilities, we need that some other people need that, but they have things that you need. And I say from the pulpit all the time, you know what, you need me, but I need you. And I have things that you need, and you come and try to get that. But you know, what, you have things that I need, including those of you that misbehave, I need you because I need to develop unconditional love. And God knows that you’re not there. Accidentally. It’s not you had been providentially provided

Afshin Ziafat
again, back to that Ephesians four, we are one organism or First Corinthians 12, we’re one body of Christ, and every member is needed for that body to grow up. You know, I think of and Second Corinthians one also that says the comfort that we receive in our affliction is so that we can comfort others when they go through affliction. And sometimes I think we think well, I’m doing okay, so I don’t need to go to church. Yeah, but like you said, there’s somebody there, who is struggling with some, something that you have come through now. And you’ve received the blessing of the comfort of God, and you’re meant to be there to be a minister to comfort them. And you miss that if you’re not in the in the in the gathering. By the way, not to mention, we haven’t even yet said Lord’s supper and baptism, the ordinances of the church, I mean, that God has ordained for the body to come together and to take the Lord’s Supper as a remembrance of what he has done for us. I mean, a man unless they’re doing it in their home, but I think you’re missing. But I still don’t think I think it’s the gathered body right, that we observed. I

George Robertson
think that yeah, I, again, my part of my repentance was not believing in the divinely powerful weapons as Paul Colson, or in the, the, the gathered church, in you know, each time, Paul in those six panels of the book of Acts, he says, And the Lord is adding to their number. And they were sharing all things in common and they were devoting themselves to the, the apostles teaching into the fellowship of breaking bread and, and doing acts of mercy and leading people to Christ. And we, I can be guilty of thinking about every other solution first, other than the divinely powerful one. And to forget that the preached Word of God does break down strongholds of the evil one. Taking the supper together, binds us together Spirit uses that to bind us together and to advance in us the human accomplishments of Christ in his in his body. The baptism not only is not only a symbol but it’s a seal to our consciences of the washing power of the Holy Spirit and could free from shame and guilt. And so I had a convicting experience recently this this very young man who he He’s grown up until he was about high school in the church then went off to college and, and got a job and never did not go to church again. From the time he was about 15, or 16 on. So he moved back to Memphis, and I saw him attending worship. And I thought, well, he must be here because his sister is making him than his sister left town. And he’s still attending. And I thought he’s must be here, because he’s found a pretty girl, you know, he’s dating is dating when she disappeared, and he’s still coming. And he sends me a note to say, I just want you to know I’m growing. And I’d like to, to meet with you and find out how to grow more. What in the world is going on? So we, we we meet? And I said, So what book have you read? Or what podcasts? Did you listen to that tip this scale where you’re starting to grow and you’re preferring the way God says, to do things in his words? And he said, Well, don’t you tell us all the time that when you come to worship, the Spirit does things here that you really can’t fully account for that the Lord’s Supper really seals to you how much God loves you. And, and, and in worship, and the song and the preached word, the sung word, and I don’t really know I started going to church started going to worship. Oh, that’s amazing. I should be a try not to show amazement, because I’m not supposed to be, you know, but it, it’s a tremendous reminder again, and again, these very simple things that we underestimate, because we’re just looking at them with human eyes. These are really the divinely powerful weapons of God, that, that the culture is really desperate for they may not know it, but these are the things that turned the world upside down in the first three centuries.

Afshin Ziafat
Well, in conclusion, I think what I’m gathering from this conversation is, again, having a robust ecclesiology of really teaching our people, what churches it’s not just another podcast, just a place you come in, just get a sermon and go, but really, it’s not just the staff do the work, and then you just show up and receive. But no, it’s actually every member is a minister of the gospel, every member has to be a part of the building up of the body. And if they understand that, then hopefully they’ll see that we need to not neglect the gathering. So thank you, brothers for the conversation. I enjoyed it.